The biggest problem. Trolls!

  • Trolls want attention. Making a big fuzz about trolls and threatening them with punishments tends to increase the problem instead of reducing it. Trolls are a rather unique problem because, in a way, they want to be punished, since punishment is a form of attention. Even today the best weapon against trolls is still to ignore them. "Don't feed the troll" is probably the wisest of all internet wisdom and it's actually backed up scientifically.

    Many problems in the game are related to the majority of industries.


    Majorities are the cause of the most hurt feelings in the game.

    They give food to the trolls. Being able to break them.

    Majorities are a problem for those who want to invest and gain prestige.


    That is why we can say that the biggest problem in the game is the majority!


    That is why I propose completely new approach to the problems.

    So I opened a new topic for discussing this cardinal new idea.

    The biggest problem. Majority!

  • There are a few other games that tried that and it's not inherently a bad ide (in fact it worked quite well), but it comes along with a surprisingly big amount of work to keep it running, mostly due the "Who watches the watchers?" problem. Similar to AI, this is a method that is viable for massively big communities that have a huge problem with disruptive behavior.
    But in general I am a big fan of using this method and creating systems that allow a community to govern themselves. I'll keep it in mind.

    So true! There are lots of games, that use observers. (as I suggested: be present). The main objective of the owner of the game to send out observers, is to make their employees know the secrets and strategies of the game and to gain some knowledge about the community they are developing for. But the side effect is: they are thre, sometimes, they are present ... and simply knowing they might be near keeps people from excalating fights and from trolling.


    But this is also very true: "who watches the watchers?" A watcher watcher should be a company worker, and there comes the problem: they have to watch their colleagues, who work in the next room, who they meet in the cantina ... I have seen watchers, who definitely say: "I cannot tell the player that my colleague did wrong. I must be loyal!"

    They often have this problem of a wrong understanding of loyalty. They feel they have to be loyal to the company, to the watchers they watch ... so in those game, players / customers never succeed with complaints.

    At the end, the watcher and the watcher of the watcher feel good, they were loyal to the company, to each other ... but they scared away a customer, which decreases income ... which is definitely not loyal to the company and their own jobs.


    I always hope that the bosses of the watchers who watch, have an idea of these human feelings ... of loyalty.



    Do you think there would be a reliable way to identify the trolls in Rail Nation?

    No. Just because it is to easy to point at someone and shout "Troll!". Finger pointing and shouting "Troll!" is ... trolling.


    A wise man told me: "You never know, who is in the audience." Even if you witness the action right from the start, you never know, who the real troll is. You do not know it. If you do not know the players exactly, you never know, who started the escalation.

    From counselling partnerships and families, I know: you will never find out, who is the troll, the one who started it all. But you can stop the excalating fight and go back to the times when they were not (yet) fighting. Quite often there is a chance to go back on their time line to a point, when they liked each other.

    Trolls want attention. Making a big fuzz about trolls and threatening them with punishments tends to increase the problem instead of reducing it. Trolls are a rather unique problem because, in a way, they want to be punished, since punishment is a form of attention. Even today the best weapon against trolls is still to ignore them. "Don't feed the troll" is probably the wisest of all internet wisdom and it's actually backed up scientifically.

    I would be interested to read about the scientific article that proves that.

    Because: there is no way to identify trolling 100%.

    Imagine: "HMR talks about biggest problems" ... I like that. But someone else might answer: "RN is fun, stop trolling by accusing them to cause biggest problems!" For me, the person who answerd started trolling, but they are 100% sure, they found a troll.


    it is true, in RL and in games many people attract attention by getting punished. Little kids to that too, but also adults, who learnt well in the sandbox.

    But I cannot agree to the general rule to ignore a troll. 80% of the trolls came up with a nice idea, which is fought by those who do not like the guy or the idea and attack them personally. The guy reacts, it escalates ...


    My (mabe better?) way to react on trolls is: do not feed the troll nor their attackers. Return to the first idea and comment that idea, not the person. Do NOT make comments to character or missing skills of the humans involved, strictly stick to the theme.

    This ignores both: the troll and the trolls trolling the troll.

    Beliebt sein ist eigentlich ganz einfach:

    Man muss nur immer sagen, was die anderen hören wollen.

    Leider liegt mir das so überhaupt nicht.

  • So I opened a new topic for discussing this cardinal new idea.

    The biggest problem. Majority!

    I will certainly have a look at that discussion later.


    The main objective of the owner of the game to send out observers

    I think the observer idea was, in this case, meant as a system where players watch players. That's what my reply was referring to.


    About employees playing: We already do and several people in our team can definitely be consideres "pros" in this game. I'm not one of them though :P

    I would be interested to read about the scientific article that proves that.

    Just to be clear here: I am talking about a very specific kind of troll. The word "troll" is nowadays often used very broadly for just everyone who misbehaves, which is not really correct. Trolls are a very specific kind of disruptive users. They do not misbehave because they are angry or because they don't know better or something like that. They do it out of sadistic joy. I just want to be clear about that, because what I (and the study) say about trolls only applies to this very special kind of disruptive user.
    The study I mostly think about is "Trolls just want to have fun" from BUCKELS, PAULHUS & TRAPNELL.
    It is not direct empirical evidence that ignoring works against trolls, but it explains typical personality traits of trolls, the "dark triad": Narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism.
    Especially the narcissism part of it is what supports the "Don't feed the troll" method.


    In addition to that, this is also based on the experience of moderators around the world. As a moderator, you sometimes encounter users who do not adapt their behavior, regardless of how you punish them. Quite the opposite, they often seem to enjoy it and are even proud of their moderation history and all the accounts that got banned and they proudly present that to the public. Those users cannot be dealt with with conventional methods. You can not punish them, you need to bore them. Deny them an audience and attention, that's the only thing that works.

    I also have to add that I don't think we have many of those players in our community. I think most of the misbehavior in RN comes from misguided anger or revenge.

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  • Something like that would be totally stupid, because top PP players generate a lot of undeserved hate. (jealousy, envy, and so on)


    And also, if some players from the biggest corp were banned from a city, they would retaliate with all the corp. You would basically allow a game of "I'm stronger than you, try to mess with me and your game is ruined anyway, even if I cannot be the one to do it. I have 24 friends ready for that". And if you increase too much the number of "bannable" players, then the game has 0 interest. Remove the connections between cities entirely at this rate. And make this game something about islands in isolation competing between each other.


    What you must understand is : this game is not about isolation. And the majorities are not a given, it's something you have to defend to some extent ! (there is a huge gap between white : 0 invests; and black : someone stole our majority with 20M. Stop trying to remove the latter by giving tools to punish everything that is not the former). A corp that invested 15M in its industry shouldn't lose the majority to a troll (and will never). A corp that cries because they invested only 30k should not be given tools to ruin the game of the guy that invested 40k.



    While 3 clicks are fine for some of the latest industries. It's way too small for the wood industry that costs 12k, 24k 36k = 72k for 3 clicks for example.

  • I think the way forward on this is to enable players some way to attack each other.

    To damage buildings and engines, forcing the destructive player to spend resources on repairing to regain function.


    For example let's say you can spend credits on a saboteur against another players base and pick 1 building. You damage the engine house; maybe a consequence of this is that the player first has to repair the engine house before he can repair his engines.

    Or if the restaurant/shopping/hotel is damaged they pause their bonus generation. And so on.


    If then for example someone is sabotaging an EG or mucking around with peoples majorities, then whole associations make their attacks on those individuals and rid them of their ability to sabotage.


    The stronger the player the more resistant to attacks, and the more effect the attacks have on the victim (this prohibits masses of double accounts to have much effect). Let's say a 100k PP player attacks a 0.8k PP player then it would be reasonable to push down the trains to around 10% of their max speed. If the 0.8k attacks a 100kPP player, then maybe that players trains would lose one percent or something. Maybe equally strong players could take 10~% off from each others engines if attacking.


    If this is balanced right, it would mean people have to interact in a much more deliberate manner to keep their contacts and surroundings from hostility, while having appropriate tools to deal with saboteurs.

    It would also add a whole new strategic element to the game.

    Now excuse me, I've got a train line to run!

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Locomotius Prime ().

  • Something like that would be totally stupid, because top PP players generate a lot of undeserved hate. (jealousy, envy, and so on)

    Cities dont want to lose top players, so if 50+% of the city is so stupid to limitate top player... then probably they dont deserve to have him there, and for top players, chaning a city is not such a big problem, especially to leave the city of stupid players.


    If somebody would use this mechanism to limitate me in some city, I would just join another city and haul there, maybe even working harder ;)

    Quote

    What you must understand is : this game is not about isolation. And the majorities are not a given, it's something you have to defend to some extent !

    Yeah, I know what the majorities are and how they work, You dont have to tell me that.


    Problem is with revengful, evil, trolls, who will in the middle of night put blocking amount of investment, just to block city's level up for next few hours or overinvesting 10 times in a industry, every time You gain back majority, or doing this in multiple industries, earning money just to spend them all on pissing of other players. The game is not evil-protected enough, and lots and lots of players will tell You that. They will tell You that such attitudes piss them off, and RN Team don't do enough to prevent it, sadly.


    Changing game mechanics, with addition of some kind of voted limitation of investment for chosen players its a possibly solution. Not a ban from game, not ban from city, not ban from investing... just a limitation of investing in just a city where its voted, which hits exactly the core of the problem and is not overacting toward such players same time.


    Maybe it should be 60+%, its need some testing to set most optimized number of votes, but I can guarantee, that in my current game, three surrounding cities would vote like 70+% (the rest probably is to little active and logging not often, not reading forums and not knowing what happens in city generally othewise all would vote for limitation) to limitate investments of one irritating guy... Fakula. Two of them being in a same region, in Europe scenario, so he does not do it as a weapon toward competition, but he piss of guys who he should teamwork together even.

    Quote

    While 3 clicks are fine for some of the latest industries. It's way too small for the wood industry that costs 12k, 24k 36k = 72k for 3 clicks for example.

    So maybe make it different for some early industries, or just leave it like this simple 3-clicks option. In era 1 such money is much more than in era 6 actually.


    Mechanism is much more important actually, not the specific number. Number will be much easier to change than implementing the limitation-of-overinvesting-mechanism

  • Problem is with revengful, evil, trolls, who will in the middle of night put blocking amount of investment, just to block city's level up for next few hours or overinvesting 10 times in a industry, every time You gain back majority, or doing this in multiple industries, earning money just to spend them all on pissing of other players. The game is not evil-protected enough, and lots and lots of players will tell You that. They will tell You that such attitudes piss them off, and RN Team don't do enough to prevent it, sadly.

    A person spends his time getting into the game in the middle of the night, and at this time you are quietly sleeping. Who of you loves the game? And who needs to be limited?

    If you take examples from football, instead of trying to learn how to play as Messi or Ronaldo, here they suggest that Messi and Ronaldo cut off their legs. And allow yourself to play with hands. Then maybe your chances on the field will be equal and you will be able to play on an equal footing with the masters.

    That's right, let's take active players who are ready to play around the clock and who are interested in playing, with the level of those who enter the game when there is absolutely nothing to do and boring. Should not be so.

    Maybe before you make a complaint to the development team, ask yourself, am I doing everything right?

  • A person spends his time getting into the game in the middle of the night, and at this time you are quietly sleeping. Who of you loves the game? And who needs to be limited?

    If you take examples from football, instead of trying to learn how to play as Messi or Ronaldo, here they suggest that Messi and Ronaldo cut off their legs. And allow yourself to play with hands. Then maybe your chances on the field will be equal and you will be able to play on an equal footing with the masters.

    That's right, let's take active players who are ready to play around the clock and who are interested in playing, with the level of those who enter the game when there is absolutely nothing to do and boring. Should not be so.

    Maybe before you make a complaint to the development team, ask yourself, am I doing everything right?

    Your analogy halts in that ronaldi and messi are actually good players who try to push towards scoring goals and making points, and winning their respective games.


    A troll would be a fat dude running into the field with a shotgun, who couldn't make it into a division 9 team.


    So the dude with the shotgun comes in, shooting and decapitating messi or ronaldo without giving a crap about the ball, the game or winning anything. It's not that this fat dude with a shotgun is so good that he is "winning" over ronaldo or messi, it's that in the case of Rail Nation, that fat dude with the shotgun running into the field and shooting people is "not against the rules", and there is no game-mechanic or anything to hit back.

    The problem is if our "ronaldo/messi" RN player over-invests the troll, he will have spent precious resources that puts him at a disadvantage against the real competition 5 cities away.


    Take another game like CNC tiberium alliances, when people try to do this type of griefing, a good player just kills that player and shuts him down for 24h. A little while into the game the powerful player gets strong defenses rendering him immune to the griefing players attacks, while he can wipe the griefer in a heartbeat without losing much. it's been like 6 years since I played it, but it's very obvious to me that a similar power-relation and some sort of attack mechanic is needed in RN to be able to deal with these trolls.


    Right now a troll can spend 100% of their income on trolling, and make huge damage, but they have nothing to lose and can't be stopped effectively.

    Now excuse me, I've got a train line to run!

  • If I spend all my money on trolling today and tomorrow, then the day after tomorrow I will just have nothing to troll on or my income will be incomparable with the income of other players. Because I will be on Swallows, and they are on Moles. And besides, they will still be with the majority, that is, they initially have higher incomes. Even if you go along this line. I spend all my money to fight back, every member of the association that I troll need to spend only 1/26 of what I spent. Is it the same costs? And do not reinvent the wheel. You just need to play normally.

  • If I spend all my money on trolling today and tomorrow, then the day after tomorrow I will just have nothing to troll on or my income will be incomparable with the income of other players. Because I will be on Swallows, and they are on Moles. And besides, they will still be with the majority, that is, they initially have higher incomes. Even if you go along this line. I spend all my money to fight back, every member of the association that I troll need to spend only 1/26 of what I spent. Is it the same costs? And do not reinvent the wheel. You just need to play normally.

    If the money is used together with the mind.

    It is possible with much less money to make big problems.

    I know some of the ways of the trolls.

    But the purpose of this topic is to fight trolls.

    Not to write a guide for them.

  • Excuse me. This is a conversation between a blind person and a deaf person. I do not see the point to continue it. I am truly sorry for both you and your association, if there is a possibility when only one person can spoil your game. How not to try to change the rules anyway, it will be so. Or it will be a completely different game.

  • 6) Observers (Players are a great force)

    Trusted players may be given the role of observers.

    Who to report when they see an irregularity.

    The role may be visible to everyone in the game.

    There are a few other games that tried that and it's not inherently a bad ide (in fact it worked quite well), but it comes along with a surprisingly big amount of work to keep it running, mostly due the "Who watches the watchers?" problem. Similar to AI, this is a method that is viable for massively big communities that have a huge problem with disruptive behavior.
    But in general I am a big fan of using this method and creating systems that allow a community to govern themselves. I'll keep it in mind.

    The key point in this proposal is that they are just watchers!

    No one needs to watch them!

    Because they have NO control functions.

    They only report when they see an irregularity.

    And a company employee checks if there is an irregularity.

    If confirmed - action is taken by the employee.

    They act as an observer and a filter of problems.

    Like AI.

    But they do not have the right to act(control )!

  • As for me, for what I am sure, cause lot of players will confirm You that...


    1. You lose lots of players cause of trolls.


    2. Your company, running Rail Nation, lose money, cause of lost players.


    3. Team managing Rail Nation did not implement tools effective enough to fight trolls.


    Keep doing so, keeps losing players, keep losing money, keep people get pissed of, cause of development team not doing enough to implement such tools for years already.


    I will be gone from RN soon probably, as one of those, who do not want to lose time and nerves on game which is not effectively enough secured from trolling, which is kind of 'hate in action', or revengefullness in action or evil in action. This game is evil friendly, in a way, I would say. "- You want troll people? Go and play Rail Nation! Admins will do You nothing, not like on facebook groups or wherevere else"


    People reporting about trolls, will never stop bother You as well. Until this problem is solved. And there are good solutions. I mentioned one above. Idea to work with, limitating trolls overinvestments in city.

  • Mister Seroslav above


    I completely agree with you.


    Now at Japanese server we have big problem on our city because a man who created an entire association with himself and 15 fake accounts he created/controls only for purpose to harrass other players, break majorities and be a troll.

    He even has two smaller associations he add fake accounts from them to the main association of him once donation quota is finished.

    Any real human player who plays at this town has noticed this fake accounts and the childish behaviour of the man.

    We reported the problem to Japanese server staff but they seem not willing to investigate the situation, never give us an update or seem to do their job to protect game rules.

    Very sad.


    I love this game very much, spend good amount of money on this game, but wished as paying customer that game staff does his job professionally and seriously

  • down in reno their is the great western group their all fake accounts the man keeps pranking people and declineing the application every time HEADS UP