Fake players on JP01

  • Travian is always talking in their own favor. Again all comments made are contradictory. I had a discussion at the beginning of the year about showing private data on youtube. I got an answer in a mail where Travian stated that an avatar name is not private data. The screenshot is from a mail I received back on this topic.

    wbb.rail-nation.com/wcf/index.php?attachment/16949/


    If I read this statement above, Travian is allowed to post an avatar name and tell what decisions are made e.g. on a suspicion of a multi account. This are their own words.

    :engine1::engine1::engine1:

    Watch your thoughts because they can become words

    Watch your words because they become your deeds

    Watch your deeds because they become your habits

    Watch your habits because they become your character

    Watch your character because it will become your destiny

  • As i wrote GDPR is all about of what U want it to be

    Not really, it's a law. And it's not either a problem or protection, it's both. Yes, GDPR does protect privacy...but it can also cause problems, for example if customers somehow need/want access to information about other customers and GDPR doesn'ta allow it.


    But, to be honest, I'm wondering how this discussion suddenly became all about GDPR. Is getting information about the punishment status of multis really what this discussion is about? How exactly does that help? If there is a multi (the kind of multi that was discussed originally here, short term multis) and you report him...is it really that different whether you are told "Thanks for your report, we are on it" or "Thanks for your report, we take action". If you trust our support, both statements are the same. If you don't trust our support, both are just "hot air". Is it really that different?


    But my real question is: Is this what you actually want? Is this the solution? Knowing what happens? The multi will still be able to just create a new account and do the same thing again. Knowing that he got punished changes nothing about that.


    Of course I understand the need for information about punishments. I am a gamer myself and, for example, I've been playing a lot of League of Legends. There you can report players for bad behavior and occasionally you get a notification that one of the players you reported got punished. This notification is incredibly satisfying and I wish it would appear more often. It feels awesome to see that justice was served.

    But in the end, as satisfying as it feels, I don't really care too much about it and what's really important to me is that rule breakers are caught or it doesn't even happen in the first place.
    If you want a better experience when reporting multis to the support, I get it and I support that. At the same time I would much prefer it if you wouldn't even have to write those support tickets in the first place.


    Since this disussion widened up a bit, let me try to sum up a few topics:


    • JP CS: If our Japanese customer support is below standards, we will take action. On it.
    • Phrasing of CS replies to multi reports: I'll ask our legal guys how much info we can provide and how we can change the CS reply accordingly.
    • Preventing the creation of multis: That's a topic I could still need your help with, with the focus being on methods to make the creation of multis less attractive. We are having a meeting about this internally soon, but more heads have more ideas, so your input is still highly appreciated.

    _________________________________________

    Found?DU5gLUo.png

  • that is EXACTLY what i said, Salix.


    GI Joe. Klabbauter, everyone here knows and understands exactly what I said, except you.


    I am starting to really lose patience and considering quitting a game which I once loved, but its staff really spoils the fun, as much as the fake players.

  • Then I'm very sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you meant what you wrote (the "not accepting problems" and dismissing concerns" are direct quotes, you wrote exactly that).


    I have a small update about the topic:

    - I talked with Legal and the problem with providing specific information about punishments is not the GDPR, but the German constitution/fundamental rights, which protect the punished player. It's complicated and it's a case by case decision. I will try to dig deeper in this topic.

    - As already mentioned, the performance of the JP CS team is not satisfying in this case. We (the Game Centre/Devs) will intervene.

    _________________________________________

    Found?DU5gLUo.png

  • Then I'm very sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you meant what you wrote (the "not accepting problems" and dismissing concerns" are direct quotes, you wrote exactly that).


    I have a small update about the topic:

    - I talked with Legal and the problem with providing specific information about punishments is not the GDPR, but the German constitution/fundamental rights, which protect the punished player. It's complicated and it's a case by case decision. I will try to dig deeper in this topic.

    - As already mentioned, the performance of the JP CS team is not satisfying in this case. We (the Game Centre/Devs) will intervene.

    I dont know about my teammates, but I will try to give one more chance then, if you promise to intervene.


    Taking the chance also, since this is a global game (yes, there are regional/country servers, but anyone with a valid account and system requirements can join any server,)

    it is absolutely necessary that employees, especially those directly dealing with customers MUST be fluent in English at a native level, not copy and paste a gibberish answer made in Google translate.


    Anyone who has had contact with the individual taking care of the Japanese server (yes, it is always this one individual who replies to tickets\enquiries with the same copy/paste gibberish English reply, clearly made in Google translate. Please note that the Japanese language translates VERY badly to other languages using a translate software.) knows for a fact that his English is a little below beginner level.

    Unacceptable for a global enterprise.


    Edit to add : this is also the reason that GI Joe and my other teammates are so angry at this guy from the Japanese server support.

    He will only send this same gibberish style short reply, obviously copy and paste from Google translate and never give further or better assistance.


    I know they are telling the truth because I contacted in English and got the same exact gibberish as reply and never any word again, about the fake players.


    And I will tell you why;./


    BECAUSE HE DOES NOT KNOW ENGLISH, only Japanese.

  • Not really, it's a law. And it's not either a problem or protection, it's both. Yes, GDPR does protect privacy...but it can also cause problems, for example if customers somehow need/want access to information about other customers and GDPR doesn'ta allow it.

    Yes, it's a law. But as Rype says: some use it to hide themselves behind it (we are not allowed), some use it to collect even more private data. Some ignore it. GPDR disallows you to collect private data without reasoning and without reporting collection app and reason to authorities, or to tell us mail adresses or birthdates without being authorized by that customer.

    You should also keep in mind, that in Europe (almost) each guy with a job is in touch with GPDR and got a trainining on it. And even outside Europe there are people very well informed about the law.


    But, to be honest, I'm wondering how this discussion suddenly became all about GDPR. Is getting information about the punishment status of multis really what this discussion is about?

    Remember your own arguments? You told us you are not allowed to tell "details". And you used laws as a reason. So. there is no reason to wonder about the name of the law came up.

    You could have used more reasons, more arguments:

    - it might not be ethic to publish what you call "details" about wrongdoers

    - players who are known as punished lose their face, your company philosophy might disallow that

    - on the other hand ... also those who tell to report malicous multis, lose their face, if nothing happens that can be witnessed

    - you might want to protect customers to be known as punished, and then find out, you (your company) made a mistake

    - ...


    GPDR is the law, that disallows to tell "details". But you never told, what "details" you are talking about. There are different opinions about the avatar name being private. Opinions differ between customers as welll as among the employees of Travian.


    But in the end, as satisfying as it feels, I don't really care too much about it and what's really important to me is that rule breakers are caught or it doesn't even happen in the first place.

    There is more than only a satisfying feeling.

    At the moment you give a first reply, telling nothing but you go the message. Then ... nothing. The customer who reported is left alone, without further information, without knowing if the case is dealt with, procrastinated, closed or finished. The customer who reported is treated like a little child who must not know, what the grown-ups are talking about.

    Not to finish a communication feels like being disrespected ... so you should find a way to create a better feeling than "OK, kids, you complained, now go into your room, we adults are dealing with that."


    Preventing the creation of multis: That's a topic I could still need your help with, with the focus being on methods to make the creation of multis less attractive. We are having a meeting about this internally soon, but more heads have more ideas, so your input is still highly appreciated.

    - Well, at the moment the malicous multis feel safe. It is so easy to create a new mail account, a new RN account ... even if caught you can be sure, nobody will tell, it's only the angry players who have no proof, cause Travian never tells.

    Take away (part of) that safety. 2FA is the first idea, just think, what you can add to the registration or login to make multis feel unsafe.


    - On the other hand, make families feel safer. Today a father who logs in to protect his daughter and writes the wrong words "Do not talk that rude to my daughter" has broken the rule of your TOS, is a multi, gets a punishment, he or she might be permanently banned ... though he only followed humanity and laws to watch over his daughter. And no, you cannot tell families to always log out correctly from their family computer ... well you can in your TOS, but you will lose families as customers.


    - Long ago I suggested to install something like an appeal. OK today we can mail "complaints". I experienced that twice and more often in cases others brought forward to me. My conclusion is: There is a great spirit of loyalty between the employees. Sounds great, but the result is: no matter if the complaint guy sits at home, in Cologne or in Munich, they will never doubt what the punisher said. I have read reasoning like this: "You might have written blue, buy you meant red, and because we know what you thought and intended by telling the wrong color, you get a ban."

    Yes, I have seen customers getting punished cause the employees knew better what the customer thought and intended, better than the customer himself.


    - That is, why I suggest an appeal. Wrongdoers are facing the judgment of a CS, and if they complain, they face being alone against a big company (Bright Future) or even the mother company Travian. They are all alone.

    My suggestion is to allow them to name one or two players/customers to support them. It can be done in a hidden part of the forum, so you have better control than to use Discord or any other third party software. Your first thought might be: Oh, more work, more time ... however those supporters of the wrongdoer become witnesses of the appeal. They will tell you "Well, he said blue, who did you read his mind and know he intended red?"

    The big advantage for you: loyalty is witnessed, but more: the appleal itself is witnessed and the witnesses will probably confirm that everything was fair and respectful ... and the final punishment (or acquittal) ok.

    Plus: real malicous multis will not want to go through that appeal. So, if you caught a real wrongdoer, that even shortens your time and investigations on it.

    Loyalty is a great thing. There must be loyalty among teams, within companies. But loyalty with your customers is necessary because its part of the loyalty to the company. A company without customers will no longer be a company. If you are loyal to your team mate, even if he tells "you thought red, but wrote blue to not get punished" ... well its only ONE customer, but with that kind of loyalty, not only that one will leave you. But if you were right and his chosen witness tells him to cool down, there is more space for solutions.

    It is just a suggestion. I experienced good results, if the CS know about it, and the customers know about it, it will happen only 3-6 times a year. Both sides will be more careful, show more respect, try more friendliness.

    Some details of my suggestion will not please you, take out the positve details before you say "impossible".

    (hint: red and blue example is fantasy, because I am not allowed to talk about real cases)


    - A general hint: language. Linguists and psychologists will find the language of support and employees not only formal and with very little empathy, they will even tell, it's parent to child communication. Travians mostly facing on "We want..." not on "What can we do for you?", Travians focussing on their work, intentions, time, department work ... but not on the needs and worries of the customers. Something like "I understand you ... " must be followed by action. Today we have a positive action: your information that there will be a meeting ... if you make that a real positive action, you will tell us results.

    Does language matter for suggestions about detecting malicous multis? Yes, it does. If your role in any communicaion is less parent and more partner, less "we want" and more feeling of eye contact, results will be better, and real wrongdoers are not used to that and ... confess.


    (ok, its getting too long again, sorry guys)

    Bist du die Lösung? ... Wenn nicht, bist du ein Teil des Problems.

    Oder anders: Lösungen finden wir, wenn wir vom Problem, vom Thema, weg denken ... wenn wir off topic denken.

    Lösungen liegen immer außerhalb (off) des Problems.

  • - I talked with Legal and the problem with providing specific information about punishments is not the GDPR, but the German constitution/fundamental rights, which protect the punished player. It's complicated and it's a case by case decision. I will try to dig deeper in this topic.

    "We hold these truths to be self evident ..." same fundamental rights in so many countries ...


    Yes, there is more than law, it's losing your face for example ... Thanks for your willingness do dig deeper, maybe look at other publishers how they do it ... and don't be angry if I add: Please do it this year.


    But first of all:

    Listening to YUKI there is a big problem with the employee/volunteer supporting the Japanese game and forum.

    I have great respect for the work of the CMs, the CSMs and the volunteers, but this IS a global game, a global company and the Japanese guy (like all others) should be able to write in English.


    My suggestion: let them do a test. My idea is, if they do not pass the European B1 test, they should not be part of the team that communicates with customers, employed or volunteered. B1 means that they can understand a native Englsh speaker in everyday themes and can write simple messages that a native speaker can understand.


    Also: I have witnessed posts in the German forum that were put in English ... and deleted because of wrong language. Considering that often the forum leads customers to a wrong forum language setting, those customers will go away, when their first attempt to contact forum users and team simply vanishes the next day. How about us setting an example about becoming a global community by allowing internationality not only on OJ servers but also in the forum? This does not allow all languages in all sub forums, but a better way to deal with posts in the wrong language part and not just delete them.

    Bist du die Lösung? ... Wenn nicht, bist du ein Teil des Problems.

    Oder anders: Lösungen finden wir, wenn wir vom Problem, vom Thema, weg denken ... wenn wir off topic denken.

    Lösungen liegen immer außerhalb (off) des Problems.

  • At the moment you give a first reply, telling nothing but you go the message. Then ... nothing. The customer who reported is left alone, without further information

    After already being told that the report was received and that, if justified, action will be taken...what kind of further response would you expect, when keeping in mind that informing you if and what action was taken is not allowed? What kind of "further information" is left that we are allowed to share?
    I'll gladly try to improve this aspect of our CS, but in this particular situation I'm not quite sure which kind of improvement you would expect.

    (ok, its getting too long again, sorry guys

    That's not really the issue. But while writing you kind of went offtopic and most of what you wrote has nothing to do with with making multis less attractive. Maybe I also didn't express myself clear enough. What I'm am looking for is methods to basically take away the reasons to use multis. Let me explain it with an example
    Problem Player A creates a lot of accounts to invest his starting money in industries of where the association of his hated rival Player B owns the majority.

    Gameplay solution: New players can't invest in industries.


    Now this example is just to show what I am looking for, I know that various problems are associated to this "solution". It's just an example what I mean with "making it less attractive. In this case, a troll would have to level up his account first, which would be effort ---> less attractive to do it.


    Your ideas are certainly interesting, but not related to the quote you replied to, which of course might be caused by me being unclear.

    I dont know about my teammates, but I will try to give one more chance then, if you promise to intervene.

    We found the reason why this wasn't taken care of properly so far and are on it as we speak.

    _________________________________________

    Found?DU5gLUo.png

  • That's not really the issue. But while writing you kind of went offtopic and most of what you wrote has nothing to do with with making multis less attractive. Maybe I also didn't express myself clear enough. What I'm am looking for is methods to basically take away the reasons to use multis. Let me explain it with an example
    Problem Player A creates a lot of accounts to invest his starting money in industries of where the association of his hated rival Player B owns the majority.

    Gameplay solution: New players can't invest in industries.


    Now this example is just to show what I am looking for, I know that various problems are associated to this "solution". It's just an example what I mean with "making it less attractive. In this case, a troll would have to level up his account first, which would be effort ---> less attractive to do it.

    Your ideas are certainly interesting, but not related to the quote you replied to, which of course might be caused by me being unclear.

    If you want ideas about making multi accounts less attractive I have two:


    change or stop the elections at the Steam over Europe scenarios. Most multi accounts are on those servers, easy to create a monopoly and have all the power in a region.

    (for me the reason not to play those scenarios)


    Change the investing at industries. This is again a part where easily a monopoly is created with multi accounts. For example stop with giving prestige for investments. This will solve a lot of problems with the so called prestige hunters, these are more common at the classic servers.

    Another option regarding the investing:

    for example: try to eliminate investing and when in a city is decided the requested good is assigned to association X, this association will get the majority at this industry when it takes out the most goods of that industry.

    :engine1::engine1::engine1:

    Watch your thoughts because they can become words

    Watch your words because they become your deeds

    Watch your deeds because they become your habits

    Watch your habits because they become your character

    Watch your character because it will become your destiny

  • After already being told that the report was received and that, if justified, action will be taken...what kind of further response would you expect, when keeping in mind that informing you if and what action was taken is not allowed? What kind of "further information" is left that we are allowed to share?

    I told you in the same post:

    Remember when you were a child and were angry about a teacher, about another child, about a neighbour complaining about something that you have not done .... and your parents promised you to deal with that and sent you to bed ...

    And then, next day or next week the teacher acted the same as before, the other child was as bad as before, the neighbour came up with the same wrong insults .... how did you feel?

    Did you say: "Oh, I love my parents, they fought for me." or did you doubt and ask them again? Or did you lose trust and more and more did NOT tell your parents about your worries and sorrows?

    Sometimes parents forget to take action. Good parents stand to that and apologize. Bad parents get angry and say: "We told you we take action, why do you bother us with your little worries again!" Or they say: "There is nothing we should/can tell you."

    So, many parents experience the child growing up to puberty and getting angy and then to a grown up, who lost trust into authorities, who does not believe in the words of companies.


    If you ask, what further information is left, you take the role of parents who shout at their child: "We told you to take action, so don't bother us any more. We got no time for that stuff." and you put your customer into the role of the little child, sent to bed and never hear about any action but seeing the teacher, the child, the neighbour acting as before.


    All customers here tell you that they want some more, a little more. Companies lose trust, because even big one tell something (like: we do proper emission tests, but create software that works different in tests from driving on a street).

    You need trust ... and telling "We take action" and then keep quiet ... will not create trust.


    If you would not take the parent role in communication and put the customers into child role, but would communicate on eye level, adult to adult ... you would have the feeling: "Oh, at least I should tell him that the case is closed. Or better even a bit more."


    That's not really the issue. But while writing you kind of went offtopic and most of what you wrote has nothing to do with with making multis less attractive.

    See, what happens here?

    Yuki tries to tell you, that you do not see the topic, that you misunderstand, that you do not see the worries, the problems.

    And Yuki also tells you, that I understand ... and then you tell me, that I went offtopic.

    Very often the claim "You went offtopic" is not understanding what the user/customer said, but in parent or judge role you will not get the idea: "I should ask him to better understand his point." No, in parent role you judge that the user is offtopic ... and sometimes users get warned for that, though the employee judged on his thoughts about the text and not on what was actually written. If you judge I wrote red, cause you know my intents and thought even a "blue blue, blue" will become "red" in your judgement ... and off topic.


    All of my hints work on your question. Not directly. Not from today on. But you will not change anything if company philosopiy insists on parent-child communication is best for support and forum.


    Make customers your partners, communicate on eye level. Ask before you judge offtopic. Do not believe in you understanding all and misunderstanding always on customer's side. Ask instead of judging ...

    ... because malicous multis are like angry youths in puberty, who are angry and mistrust their parents and bully the younger kids ... they take advantage from you talking about "taking action" and the fun to bully good players.

    If you want to change that, your company must give up the role of being parents and join the community of players, on THEIR level ... then the malicous multils will have no chance after a few months.


    You might long for short and easy suggestions to change your "taking action" from tomorrow.

    But there must be a basis for that new behaviour of yours, if there is no basis, it might even get worse with the quick changes.




    Edit:

    Ah, and listen to Yuki. Those are good ideas. Those "elections" are ... (ok, I will not tell my opinion) ... but what presidents and mayors often do is ruling around (parent role again, they like your example) about 200 players in their region, denouncing publicall each one, who does (in their opinion) wrong. I am playing only one SoE server and I do that by reading the president, but deciding about my strategy with my brain. Sometimes both ways fit, sometimes they don't.

    About investing: Yes, I like the idea. Most of the fighing and most of multis are caused be the chance to take the majority. If new players can not or only once invest into industries, making multis would be a lot of work. Or if investment only goes with definitely bring or haul goods from that industry, the multis would have to have trains too.

    Some simple game rule changes

    Bist du die Lösung? ... Wenn nicht, bist du ein Teil des Problems.

    Oder anders: Lösungen finden wir, wenn wir vom Problem, vom Thema, weg denken ... wenn wir off topic denken.

    Lösungen liegen immer außerhalb (off) des Problems.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Klabbauter ().

  • If you want ideas about making multi accounts less attractive I have two:


    change or stop the elections at the Steam over Europe scenarios. Most multi accounts are on those servers, easy to create a monopoly and have all the power in a region. (for me the reason not to play those scenarios)

    Interesting perception of the probem. Never occured to me. Seems to depend on the server.

    Change the investing at industries. This is again a part where easily a monopoly is created with multi accounts. For example stop with giving prestige for investments. This will solve a lot of problems with the so called prestige hunters, these are more common at the classic servers.

    They did already reduced the prestige for investments with 4.13

    Balancing changes

    The prestige received for halving waiting times will be reduced (restarting game worlds only).
    The prestige received for investments in industries will be reduced (restarting game worlds only).

    In my perception this change is enough. Its part of the game and I dont think it should removed. By the way: Sometimes stunning to see how little is invested sometimes on non-German and non-Russian servers. Probably explains our different perception of the problem.

    Another option regarding the investing:

    for example: try to eliminate investing and when in a city is decided the requested good is assigned to association X, this association will get the majority at this industry when it takes out the most goods of that industry.

    Please no. Too much industries are shared between cities. And another association from the same city wouldnt be able to reduce their waiting time in this case.

    That's not really the issue. But while writing you kind of went offtopic and most of what you wrote has nothing to do with with making multis less attractive. Maybe I also didn't express myself clear enough. What I'm am looking for is methods to basically take away the reasons to use multis. Let me explain it with an example
    Problem Player A creates a lot of accounts to invest his starting money in industries of where the association of his hated rival Player B owns the majority.

    Gameplay solution: New players can't invest in industries.

    May be some adjusting. Since the totorial requests players to invest in an industry players on career level 1 are only able to click once when they invest. Worth a try if thats enough hassle for multis.


    May be expand the same requirement to the elections of mayor and president. I'm not sure if I like that though.

  • Salix and Samisu and other crew members. Please read this forum topic, it's a pretty simular case as our Japanes friends encouter. This is mentioned in september last year. This case is known by a lot of rail nation players.

    You can use the link below to jump directly to the topic.


    Laat Rail Nation cheats toe?


    It's in Dutch so you have to use the google translate,


    :engine1::engine1::engine1:

    Watch your thoughts because they can become words

    Watch your words because they become your deeds

    Watch your deeds because they become your habits

    Watch your habits because they become your character

    Watch your character because it will become your destiny

  • How bad is it actually to run 2 accounts on a server with little activity? I am not talking someone who runs 10+ accounts obviopusly.

    Regardless of numbers, is bad. If it is not allowed you shouldn't be doing it, simple as.


    There are many scenario where it presents abuse, as one could use a second account to damage the economy of an opponent without having the blame landing on his doorstep, or simply not to have the economic effort required.


    In Europe could mean an extra vote for Mayor or President.

    Currently playing on:

    M1.201 Scandinavia

  • No I don't think it is ok, I just don't believe that someone running one extra account will make that much difference. Making many fake accounts for sure does, but one is only the same as a husband/wife both playing and looking after each other's accounts.

  • I've just had the same experience on my server.


    A carrier one "new player" took a name similar to "new pseudo", with an assoc name clearly indicating his anger at the support. And invested a slight 45M in one of our industries, in era 4. No trains, no nothing.


    Awesome. I guess I might start doing the same thing to my opponents on the SoE server, since apparently there is no other option.

  • I've just had the same experience on my server.


    A carrier one "new player" took a name similar to "new pseudo", with an assoc name clearly indicating his anger at the support. And invested a slight 45M in one of our industries, in era 4. No trains, no nothing.


    Awesome. I guess I might start doing the same thing to my opponents on the SoE server, since apparently there is no other option.

    If this isn't clear that it's a fake account and nothing is done about it, I will start using multiple accounts too. How does a player without trains get a bankaccount worth 45 million? You don't get this much with starting fresh at era 4.

    :engine1::engine1::engine1:

    Watch your thoughts because they can become words

    Watch your words because they become your deeds

    Watch your deeds because they become your habits

    Watch your habits because they become your character

    Watch your character because it will become your destiny

  • I've just had the same experience on my server.


    A carrier one "new player" took a name similar to "new pseudo", with an assoc name clearly indicating his anger at the support. And invested a slight 45M in one of our industries, in era 4. No trains, no nothing.


    Awesome. I guess I might start doing the same thing to my opponents on the SoE server, since apparently there is no other option.

    Sounds very much like something worth investigating. The 45M especially...


    Please contact support and tell them all the information you have.