A problem, other than the "pay to win" one, that Rail Nation still doesn't acknowledge

  • jvoodoochild, You are correct as far a the vast majority of players is concerned. There is nothing wrong in playing to win in any or all of the ways the game is designed to win. I have no problem with a player, playing within the rules to get to No.1 in prestige and/or No.1 association and/or top city.


    However, having said that, I strongly believe that the game is badly balanced as it is only possible to get to top prestige using PAX and industrial investment but it cannot be done without strong city builders to develop the cities. I am hoping to find that the new change of adding prestige to delivery of cargo to industry will make it more possible for city builders to compete for top prestige. But, this is not the point of this thread.


    The point is, imo, those player's whose sole goal is to damage a large group of players in a team or an alliance of teams. They are usually more evident once the end game has started. They play, generally, but not always, alone. They are quite obviously not playing to win in any of the accepted meanings of the word. They are playing to disrupt. I strongly believe that virtually all such players are second accounts with the main account playing to win in whichever is their chosen category(ies). They may be doing this due to a grudge, or, more likely simply to improve the chances of their regular player getting a win. (Please note, many solo players are just that. They chose for whatever reason to play alone and do no harm.)


    Is successful disruption by one player of dozens if not hundreds of other players winning by anyone's definition? If it is, then can we please have it as a stated goal with proper recognition! I doubt this game would survive long, but, it would be an interesting experiment!

    In this world there is nothing softer or thinner than Water.

    But to compel the Hard and Unyielding it has no equal.

    (Lao-Tse)

  • I talk a lot of this in my videos. There is an emotional side to this game that it is as just important to learn and manage as the mechanical side.


    As in life, you can not control other people’s actions and in many ways it’s foolish to do so and will likely result in a worse situation that what you began with.


    It’s a VERY difficult thing to do, and something I constantly fail to do myself: Try to keep your negative emotions out of the game.


    Reacting on negative emotions i dare say will never lead to a better result, so try to bury it and address the matter at hand from a purely mechanical perspective: how do I get around this problem?


    So many times conflicts are back and forth efforts that only get worse and at an early point are the fault of both parties. It’s with these situations where you can prevent your city from being sabotaged by a vengeful multi or player

  • Rhoswen k, let’s focus on “those player's whose sole goal is to damage a large group of players in a team or an alliance of teams.”


    There are two ways of winning. Play to the best of your abilities and when those are better than the others results, you win. Sometimes winning is preventing your opponent from doing their best to the point where your result is better.


    That is the nature of competition. If anyone finds one of those unacceptable then competitive multi player games may not the best fit for them.


    As I’ve said many times, victory is defined by the player. Being sabotaged during an EG is not fun, I completely understand because I’ve been there. However, there have been many paper losses I’ve taken that I consider victories because I played with honor and my opponent didn’t


    The more lifetime prestige, career points, stars define those to themselves, the more I think they are missing in life.

  • I understand what Rhoswen is telling with “those player's whose sole goal is to damage a large group of players in a team or an alliance of teams.”.

    I give an example: there is a match between two teams and it's guided by a referee. The referee starts to apply the rules in a unfair way and take away the chance of winning for 1 team because of this behaviour. He is damaging a group of players. The same is happening in RN, there are people who destroy the game for a large group by using foul play just to hurt others. That's not ok and shouldn't be tolerated at all. This hasn't to do anything with competitive play., this is destructive playing and it is shown in the large numbers of quitting players.

    :engine1::engine1::engine1:

    Work for a cause

    Not for applause

    Live life to express

    Not to impress

  • .............

    So many times conflicts are back and forth efforts that only get worse and at an early point are the fault of both parties. It’s with these situations where you can prevent your city from being sabotaged by a vengeful multi or player

    I think, is some instances you may be right, but, absolutely not always. There are without a doubt some very sad individuals who gain joy by doing harm for harms sake. They are no different from street vandals who walk down a row of cars keying them just because they can. But, there are rules of law covering vandalism if caught.


    In every game ever designed there are rules which cover deliberate sabotage of other players or of their chance to win fairly. It is this sabotage for sabotage sake which is the problem. Ball tampering is not allowed in Cricket. You are not permitted to eye gauge in Rugby. You may not revoke in chess. Your toe must not cross the oche in darts. Why then is complete laissez-faire so very acceptable in this online game but no other that I am aware of? By ignoring this behaviour and not investigating the probability that is also done by an illegal duplicate account the behaviour is actively encouraged.


    This cannot be conducive to a fair game which everyone can enjoy.


    ..............

    Sometimes winning is preventing your opponent from doing their best to the point where your result is better.

    And, just how are you, or anyone else going to achieve this "better" unless you are using a second account to do the sabotage?


    jvoodoochild :-This is not a question of controlling emotions. Nor is a question of tailoring your own behaviour to avoid conflict. With the experience you claim you must have encountered at least one pure saboteur who has appeared in era 1 and is unknown to any in the team. After eight years, I know how to keep calm and how to keep the peace in this game.

    In this world there is nothing softer or thinner than Water.

    But to compel the Hard and Unyielding it has no equal.

    (Lao-Tse)

  • ......

    As in life, you can not control other people’s actions and in many ways it’s foolish to do so and will likely result in a worse situation that what you began with.

    Have you ever heard the word Anarchy? In life, we have rules, we have laws, we have police. You are suggesting that these make the world worse! And, all organisation and authority is foolish! Very Interesting.

    In this world there is nothing softer or thinner than Water.

    But to compel the Hard and Unyielding it has no equal.

    (Lao-Tse)

  • The same is happening in RN, there are people who destroy the game for a large group by using foul play just to hurt others. That's not ok and shouldn't be tolerated at all. This hasn't to do anything with competitive play., this is destructive playing and it is shown in the large numbers of quitting players.


    Please forgive me if this is lost in translation or if it’s just hyperbole. Sabotaged games are not “destroyed” for anyone. The game goes on, it has a result, and new round begins. Naike may see this as three months of their lives that they will never get back. Kelot may see this as a player doing anything and everything lawful, so no whiners. I see it as a hurdle I cleared or didn’t cleared, but that three months thought me something and I can be proud in myself for the effort I made.


    We and we alone determine our view of the world. Are you a winner after coming in second? Only you can answer that question for yourself.

  • Please forgive me if this is lost in translation or if it’s just hyperbole. Sabotaged games are not “destroyed” for anyone. The game goes on, it has a result, and new round begins. Naike may see this as three months of their lives that they will never get back. Kelot may see this as a player doing anything and everything lawful, so no whiners. I see it as a hurdle I cleared or didn’t cleared, but that three months thought me something and I can be proud in myself for the effort I made.


    We and we alone determine our view of the world. Are you a winner after coming in second? Only you can answer that question for yourself.

    you really don't want to understand it. It's a discussion going nowhere. A saboteur destroys things deliberatly. And believe me there are players who just do it for fun round after round.

    :engine1::engine1::engine1:

    Work for a cause

    Not for applause

    Live life to express

    Not to impress

  • you really don't want to understand it. It's a discussion going nowhere. A saboteur destroys things deliberatly. And believe me there are players who just do it for fun round after round.

    I’m sorry you feel that way. What I am failing to properly express is EVERYTHING is a mater of perspective


    If you see something as destructive, then that is all it ever will be, despite the fact nothing was actually destroyed. That is entirely your choice, and you are the one one who can change your point of view.


    You can also choose to see that exact same situation as a victory, because you played with honor and respect but someone else didn’t.


    Ruining wait times at all open factories is a legal option. Travian has no interest in changing that because they are counting on conflict increasing their gold sales.


    This stuff I’m advising is real easy to say, but very difficult to practice. I fail all the time, however I have seen that my life is more enjoyable if I focus myself on seeing the positive than when I only dwell on the negative.

  • Have you ever heard the word Anarchy? In life, we have rules, we have laws, we have police. You are suggesting that these make the world worse! And, all organisation and authority is foolish! Very Interesting.

    This circles back to Kelots point. Hauling off call for the sole purpose of raising wait times is perfectly legal in this game. It’s been legal for over sevens years. The fact it doesn’t happen more often is not an indicator that it should never happen or it’s unfair when it does.

  • Kelot may see this as a player doing anything and everything lawful, so no whiners.

    I am glad that I was well understood.


    In my opinion, when planning any competitive game that aims to win this game, you should consider all the possibilities the game offers.


    Therefore, by no means do I see grounds for "punishing" anyone in RN for actions that are not described in the rules of the game as "prohibited".


    I will give a few examples of such legal activity:


    Associations from one city overnight and in the morning take TOP4 goods to another city and lead to the promotion of this city to a higher level.


    They do this on the last day of the game, a few hours before the final starts.


    Are they doing anything forbidden in the game?


    No.


    Anyone from each factory can transport goods to any city.


    They took over most of the shares in these factories.


    Are they doing anything forbidden in the game?


    No.


    Everyone can invest in any factory, any amount.

    No factory is permanently assigned to any player or association.


    Do they harm other players?


    Sure. By default, participation in the game is harmful to other players, because in order to collect prestige, for example, to the 25th position, we take prestige from those who are lower in the table: 26th place, 27th, 28th etc.


    Are they doing anything forbidden in the game?


    No! Because collecting prestige is the basis for winning this game.


    to be continued

  • We can multiply these examples, but let's reverse the situation.


    Suppose that it would be considered unfair and punishable to acquire shares in a factory and deprive the latter of the majority of the association.


    The final begins.

    There are four associations playing in the city.


    Players start transporting goods number 1, the factory of which is owned by association number 2, but it is known that players from that association will not be in the final until two hours.


    It is a constant practice that ultimately the majority in the factory is taken over by the association that can transport the most goods to the city at any given time. This is logical and sensible.


    Returning to the example.


    Society # 2 will not transport this product as there are no players from this association online, so Society # 3 is taking the majority of this company as there are the most players at the moment.


    Support reacts immediately and places a blockade on all contributing players from association # 3.


    As a result, the city drops out of the finals because it has lost 1/4 of active players and is losing the competition.


    Suppose the majority is still in the hands of the No. 2 association and no one takes it over so that there is no penalty for "sabotage".


    The factory is "burned" and the loading time in it for everyone other than the owners is 1 minute.


    Remember: the owners do not transporting the goods with reduced time, because they are not in the game yet.


    As a result, instead of "closing" a given product in 30-40 minutes, players will not have time to deliver the required amount of goods to be counted by factories and instead of "closing" at least two goods in an hour, they have to carry another goods in the second hour, or struggle with times up to 6-8 minutes of loading.


    The city is losing the competition.


    I would like to remind you that not always investments involving the takeover of most factories can be qualified as "sabotage", and in fact none can be classified as such.


    Even one person taking over a factory in the final can do it to gain a few more prestige points and jump in the ranking, e.g. one position higher.


    So it is by no means "disturbing someone else's game".


    How is support supposed to assess this situation?


    Their assessment will always be unfair and inconsistent with the intentions of the player.


    In order to punish someone for something, there must be a clearly defined limit that must not be exceeded, and this cannot be done here.

  • I also do not see a problem in the fact that the 5th or 6th associations from city A will "burn" factories for the rival city B during the finals.


    This could be part of a strategy to win the final. because it will slow down city B in transporting the required goods.


    The goal is not to stroke your head and affectionate words, but to get the goods as quickly as possible.


    If you don't understand it, change the game.




    In order to successfully win the final, or lead someone to lose the final, you need one thing - mobilize a group of people, create a team, plan an action and carry it out efficiently.


    This, unfortunately, is an art that few can do.


    They think that if they log into the game, that's enough and they should win.


    This is a mistake. And then they write about "saboteurs" and penalties for them.

  • I will not write about tedious city builders and promotions city's because there would be lacked pages on this forum.


    I just say that some people overestimate the effects of building and promotion of cities

  • Have you ever heard the word Anarchy? In life, we have rules, we have laws, we have police. You are suggesting that these make the world worse! And, all organisation and authority is foolish! Very Interesting.

    "Bad Laws are the worst kind of Tyranny"

    Edmund Burke

    (the same guy of "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing")

  • "Bad Laws are the worst kind of Tyranny"

    Edmund Burke

    (the same guy of "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing")

    You get no argument from me on either point.


    “In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousand fold in the future. When we neither punish nor reproach evildoers, we are not simply protecting their trivial old age, we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.”

    Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918–1956

    In this world there is nothing softer or thinner than Water.

    But to compel the Hard and Unyielding it has no equal.

    (Lao-Tse)

  • Quotes, slogans, proverbs ... written without context are just ... quotes, slogans, proverbs.


    To discuss the fight against evil, you must first define this evil, and what I see from the beginning of the discussion has nothing to do with "evil".


    It reminds me of old communist rantings about the "struggle for peace".


    It is commonly known that as long as there is a fight, there is no peace!


    But a catchy slogan and many repeated it without understanding what they were conveying.


    Exactly the same here.


    I have proved several times that if a player does not do prohibited things, then you cannot blame him for anything.


    From experience I have noticed that the biggest grudges are always those who wanted to win, but always someone overtook them.


    Then they bring forward pseudo-arguments about "forbidden to take over most of shares in factories", about "forbidden to transport goods other than those indicated by them "etc. etc.


    Before, when they did it themselves, it was all ok, as long as they gained the prestige they wanted.


    I know those who kicked players out of an association if the latter gained more prestige during the day!


    Funny?


    not for those thrown away.


    Their only "fault" was that they could play more effectively.


    I remember when I was still learning the basics of the game, good players were called "nasty prestige catchers."


    Since there is only one winner (the one with the highest prestige) per round, the insults fell to fertile ground.



    Some of the players frustrated with the lack of their own progress in the game tried to make it as hard as possible for good players to gain prestige.


    Nobody somehow protested against the insults, and the offended sat quietly and, as a rule, played their game, and despite even coordinated actions against them, they finished the game at TOP3.


    Insult or slander has been prohibited in this game since time immemorial.


    Where were those who are now protesting so loudly against the "saboteurs"?


    I believe that this discussion creates an artificial problem that is simply not there.


    I don't know what the purpose of further discussion on this topic is.

  • This circles back to Kelots point. Hauling off call for the sole purpose of raising wait times is perfectly legal in this game. It’s been legal for over sevens years. The fact it doesn’t happen more often is not an indicator that it should never happen or it’s unfair when it does.

    Why the fixation with players who play to win? If you read what I have been saying, it has nothing to do with hauling off call in order to further the player's game. (However, personally, I would never go to another mega city for the purpose of raising wait times. Would you?)


    The fact that hauling to raise waiting times does not happen more often is because it cannot help any individual player to win or any city to win. It is by definition, self destructive once the end game has started. (Platform X may be the exception which proves the rule, possibly.)


    It has everything to do with deliberate sabotage for no purpose other than that of spoiling the game of many. The players I am referring to are almost certainly clones with another account where they play to win. A player who runs a few goods for prestige will always ensure that he improves his prestige by the move. He frequently spends a lot of real money for this privilege. The dedicated spoilers even frequently use revealing avatar names (which the rules prevent me from repeating) and yet nothing is done. I am betting too that they do not spend much, if any, real money. I have seen these players on different servers and in Mega Cities other than the one I am playing. No prestige hunter worth his salt wants to be identified with this type of behaviour I am sure. They should NOT be.


    I do not want to stop any player, playing within the rules, from playing to win. That is legitimate play. But is is not acceptable to allow single players to play a destructive and quite deliberate losing game at the expense of dozens or even hundred of other players. The spoiler's only objective is to destroy and as I said, are almost certainly secondary accounts. They add nothing to the game and probably nothing to the profit of the developers. More likely they cost profit as legitimate players give up in disgust.


    (Btw, just because something has been permitted or endorsed for seven years does not make it right and does not prevent it being changed. The last execution took place in the UK more than 50 years ago after being considered perfectly normal for thousands of years!)

    In this world there is nothing softer or thinner than Water.

    But to compel the Hard and Unyielding it has no equal.

    (Lao-Tse)

  • Don’t want multies in your EG city raising wait times on factories not called for?


    Look at every low career player connected to your EG city a couple of days ahead of time. If they have beelined from a non overcrowded city and have spread out 4, 5, + out from the city, report them as a multi.


    They likely are, and those accounts will be banned, while the main account may be suspended for a portion of EG. If they aren’t banned then nothing you can do about any non called hauling


    As far as these accounts not earning Travian money, the easiest way to defeat high wait times at your factories is to purchase IDs. Conflict = Profit

  • (Btw, just because something has been permitted or endorsed for seven years does not make it right and does not prevent it being changed. The last execution took place in the UK more than 50 years ago after being considered perfectly normal for thousands of years!)



    It has nothing to do with the game.


    You mix concepts to prove you're right.


    Someone had an idea.


    Someone created a game based on great assumptions straight from the economy and competition in this field.


    A game difficult to meet the requirements to win (and failing to achieve some of the imaginary goals that emerged when many ambitious players were unable to win despite great efforts. They lacked patience and knowledge).


    The game has certain assumptions, it also has some limitations and facilitations.


    If someone doesn't like it, they just don't play the game.


    He's playing a different game.


    It's that simple.


    The whole situation is now as if someone is now rebelling against cars with wheels along the axis of the vehicle because he wants to have a cross and only go left or right, not forward and backward.


    And this someone is now trying to force the whole world to change the way wheels are mounted on cars, although he himself did nothing for this purpose, but only talks, talks and talks.


    Because why not mount the wheels crosswise?

    Since in UK the last execution took place 50 years ago!


    Complete nonsense.


    If you want a car with the wheels across, build it yourself. maybe in 50 years they will all have so mounted wheels if it turns out that it is a better solution than the current one.



    If you want a game with different rules, create it!


    If the game will be attractive and interesting for players, they will play it, if not ... you know what will happen.



    I still think this conversation only crushes the air.



    I respond to such entries so that no one gets the impression that everyone wants changes like the ones mentioned above.


    The company tries to be polite to the players.


    And that's okay, as long as the company doesn't try to introduce idiotic ideas from frustrated players into the game (and a few have already been) because there will be another wave of massive game abandonment, and that has already been done several times and it hasn't come any good for the game. nor for the players.


    But I guess I'm wrong, because the last execution took place in UK 50 years ago!