Posts by Klabbauter

Flixie00 wrote:

Yep, typically I am not hauling passengers on that server. Thanks

Doesn't matter.

If for example you use one of those tickets on the city screen (passengers section), it will add 2 more hours to the time, waiting time is reduced ... for all.

So it might be wise sometimes to use that voucher on a neighbour city, where your mates are getting passengers to haul into your city.

But most important: if you haul passengers or not ... when the city levels up, you will get prestige points for having spent that voucher.

Pia_BF wrote:

Hei Streitaxt!

I can only guess but I think you have the Primus in your list?

We have an error that the costs for the repair of the primus are not correct if you use the multi repair tool.

So it could be, that the costs for the repair were higher than your banklimit, but were displayed lower in the multi repair screen.

Greetings, Pia

Yes, happened to me too on German server Broadway ...

Problem is: when this happens, the program goes into a loop, showing the hyperventilating little engine ... and then you have to relog. Stupid as I am, I tried a second time ... that made three relogs before I took out the Primus from the selection (with the wrong price it's not shown between or directly under the other selected engines) and the maintenance worked.

Will you fix that, or do we have to live with that bug for the next 117 days?

(33 days Primus offer plus the round starting on that last day, 84 days)

Salix wrote:

After already being told that the report was received and that, if justified, action will be taken...what kind of further response would you expect, when keeping in mind that informing you if and what action was taken is not allowed? What kind of "further information" is left that we are allowed to share?

I told you in the same post:

Remember when you were a child and were angry about a teacher, about another child, about a neighbour complaining about something that you have not done .... and your parents promised you to deal with that and sent you to bed ...

And then, next day or next week the teacher acted the same as before, the other child was as bad as before, the neighbour came up with the same wrong insults .... how did you feel?

Did you say: "Oh, I love my parents, they fought for me." or did you doubt and ask them again? Or did you lose trust and more and more did NOT tell your parents about your worries and sorrows?

Sometimes parents forget to take action. Good parents stand to that and apologize. Bad parents get angry and say: "We told you we take action, why do you bother us with your little worries again!" Or they say: "There is nothing we should/can tell you."

So, many parents experience the child growing up to puberty and getting angy and then to a grown up, who lost trust into authorities, who does not believe in the words of companies.

If you ask, what further information is left, you take the role of parents who shout at their child: "We told you to take action, so don't bother us any more. We got no time for that stuff." and you put your customer into the role of the little child, sent to bed and never hear about any action but seeing the teacher, the child, the neighbour acting as before.

All customers here tell you that they want some more, a little more. Companies lose trust, because even big one tell something (like: we do proper emission tests, but create software that works different in tests from driving on a street).

You need trust ... and telling "We take action" and then keep quiet ... will not create trust.

If you would not take the parent role in communication and put the customers into child role, but would communicate on eye level, adult to adult ... you would have the feeling: "Oh, at least I should tell him that the case is closed. Or better even a bit more."

Salix wrote:

That's not really the issue. But while writing you kind of went offtopic and most of what you wrote has nothing to do with with making multis less attractive.

See, what happens here?

Yuki tries to tell you, that you do not see the topic, that you misunderstand, that you do not see the worries, the problems.

And Yuki also tells you, that I understand ... and then you tell me, that I went offtopic.

Very often the claim "You went offtopic" is not understanding what the user/customer said, but in parent or judge role you will not get the idea: "I should ask him to better understand his point." No, in parent role you judge that the user is offtopic ... and sometimes users get warned for that, though the employee judged on his thoughts about the text and not on what was actually written. If you judge I wrote red, cause you know my intents and thought even a "blue blue, blue" will become "red" in your judgement ... and off topic.

All of my hints work on your question. Not directly. Not from today on. But you will not change anything if company philosopiy insists on parent-child communication is best for support and forum.

Make customers your partners, communicate on eye level. Ask before you judge offtopic. Do not believe in you understanding all and misunderstanding always on customer's side. Ask instead of judging ...

... because malicous multis are like angry youths in puberty, who are angry and mistrust their parents and bully the younger kids ... they take advantage from you talking about "taking action" and the fun to bully good players.

If you want to change that, your company must give up the role of being parents and join the community of players, on THEIR level ... then the malicous multils will have no chance after a few months.

You might long for short and easy suggestions to change your "taking action" from tomorrow.

But there must be a basis for that new behaviour of yours, if there is no basis, it might even get worse with the quick changes.

Edit:

Ah, and listen to Yuki. Those are good ideas. Those "elections" are ... (ok, I will not tell my opinion) ... but what presidents and mayors often do is ruling around (parent role again, they like your example) about 200 players in their region, denouncing publicall each one, who does (in their opinion) wrong. I am playing only one SoE server and I do that by reading the president, but deciding about my strategy with my brain. Sometimes both ways fit, sometimes they don't.

About investing: Yes, I like the idea. Most of the fighing and most of multis are caused be the chance to take the majority. If new players can not or only once invest into industries, making multis would be a lot of work. Or if investment only goes with definitely bring or haul goods from that industry, the multis would have to have trains too.

Some simple game rule changes

Salix wrote:

- I talked with Legal and the problem with providing specific information about punishments is not the GDPR, but the German constitution/fundamental rights, which protect the punished player. It's complicated and it's a case by case decision. I will try to dig deeper in this topic.

"We hold these truths to be self evident ..." same fundamental rights in so many countries ...

Yes, there is more than law, it's losing your face for example ... Thanks for your willingness do dig deeper, maybe look at other publishers how they do it ... and don't be angry if I add: Please do it this year.

But first of all:

Listening to YUKI there is a big problem with the employee/volunteer supporting the Japanese game and forum.

I have great respect for the work of the CMs, the CSMs and the volunteers, but this IS a global game, a global company and the Japanese guy (like all others) should be able to write in English.

My suggestion: let them do a test. My idea is, if they do not pass the European B1 test, they should not be part of the team that communicates with customers, employed or volunteered. B1 means that they can understand a native Englsh speaker in everyday themes and can write simple messages that a native speaker can understand.

Also: I have witnessed posts in the German forum that were put in English ... and deleted because of wrong language. Considering that often the forum leads customers to a wrong forum language setting, those customers will go away, when their first attempt to contact forum users and team simply vanishes the next day. How about us setting an example about becoming a global community by allowing internationality not only on OJ servers but also in the forum? This does not allow all languages in all sub forums, but a better way to deal with posts in the wrong language part and not just delete them.

Salix wrote:

Not really, it's a law. And it's not either a problem or protection, it's both. Yes, GDPR does protect privacy...but it can also cause problems, for example if customers somehow need/want access to information about other customers and GDPR doesn'ta allow it.

Yes, it's a law. But as Rype says: some use it to hide themselves behind it (we are not allowed), some use it to collect even more private data. Some ignore it. GPDR disallows you to collect private data without reasoning and without reporting collection app and reason to authorities, or to tell us mail adresses or birthdates without being authorized by that customer.

You should also keep in mind, that in Europe (almost) each guy with a job is in touch with GPDR and got a trainining on it. And even outside Europe there are people very well informed about the law.

Salix wrote:

But, to be honest, I'm wondering how this discussion suddenly became all about GDPR. Is getting information about the punishment status of multis really what this discussion is about?

Remember your own arguments? You told us you are not allowed to tell "details". And you used laws as a reason. So. there is no reason to wonder about the name of the law came up.

You could have used more reasons, more arguments:

- it might not be ethic to publish what you call "details" about wrongdoers

- players who are known as punished lose their face, your company philosophy might disallow that

- on the other hand ... also those who tell to report malicous multis, lose their face, if nothing happens that can be witnessed

- you might want to protect customers to be known as punished, and then find out, you (your company) made a mistake

- ...

GPDR is the law, that disallows to tell "details". But you never told, what "details" you are talking about. There are different opinions about the avatar name being private. Opinions differ between customers as welll as among the employees of Travian.

Salix wrote:

But in the end, as satisfying as it feels, I don't really care too much about it and what's really important to me is that rule breakers are caught or it doesn't even happen in the first place.

There is more than only a satisfying feeling.

At the moment you give a first reply, telling nothing but you go the message. Then ... nothing. The customer who reported is left alone, without further information, without knowing if the case is dealt with, procrastinated, closed or finished. The customer who reported is treated like a little child who must not know, what the grown-ups are talking about.

Not to finish a communication feels like being disrespected ... so you should find a way to create a better feeling than "OK, kids, you complained, now go into your room, we adults are dealing with that."

Salix wrote:

Preventing the creation of multis: That's a topic I could still need your help with, with the focus being on methods to make the creation of multis less attractive. We are having a meeting about this internally soon, but more heads have more ideas, so your input is still highly appreciated.

- Well, at the moment the malicous multis feel safe. It is so easy to create a new mail account, a new RN account ... even if caught you can be sure, nobody will tell, it's only the angry players who have no proof, cause Travian never tells.

Take away (part of) that safety. 2FA is the first idea, just think, what you can add to the registration or login to make multis feel unsafe.

- On the other hand, make families feel safer. Today a father who logs in to protect his daughter and writes the wrong words "Do not talk that rude to my daughter" has broken the rule of your TOS, is a multi, gets a punishment, he or she might be permanently banned ... though he only followed humanity and laws to watch over his daughter. And no, you cannot tell families to always log out correctly from their family computer ... well you can in your TOS, but you will lose families as customers.

- Long ago I suggested to install something like an appeal. OK today we can mail "complaints". I experienced that twice and more often in cases others brought forward to me. My conclusion is: There is a great spirit of loyalty between the employees. Sounds great, but the result is: no matter if the complaint guy sits at home, in Cologne or in Munich, they will never doubt what the punisher said. I have read reasoning like this: "You might have written blue, buy you meant red, and because we know what you thought and intended by telling the wrong color, you get a ban."

Yes, I have seen customers getting punished cause the employees knew better what the customer thought and intended, better than the customer himself.

- That is, why I suggest an appeal. Wrongdoers are facing the judgment of a CS, and if they complain, they face being alone against a big company (Bright Future) or even the mother company Travian. They are all alone.

My suggestion is to allow them to name one or two players/customers to support them. It can be done in a hidden part of the forum, so you have better control than to use Discord or any other third party software. Your first thought might be: Oh, more work, more time ... however those supporters of the wrongdoer become witnesses of the appeal. They will tell you "Well, he said blue, who did you read his mind and know he intended red?"

The big advantage for you: loyalty is witnessed, but more: the appleal itself is witnessed and the witnesses will probably confirm that everything was fair and respectful ... and the final punishment (or acquittal) ok.

Plus: real malicous multis will not want to go through that appeal. So, if you caught a real wrongdoer, that even shortens your time and investigations on it.

Loyalty is a great thing. There must be loyalty among teams, within companies. But loyalty with your customers is necessary because its part of the loyalty to the company. A company without customers will no longer be a company. If you are loyal to your team mate, even if he tells "you thought red, but wrote blue to not get punished" ... well its only ONE customer, but with that kind of loyalty, not only that one will leave you. But if you were right and his chosen witness tells him to cool down, there is more space for solutions.

It is just a suggestion. I experienced good results, if the CS know about it, and the customers know about it, it will happen only 3-6 times a year. Both sides will be more careful, show more respect, try more friendliness.

Some details of my suggestion will not please you, take out the positve details before you say "impossible".

(hint: red and blue example is fantasy, because I am not allowed to talk about real cases)

- A general hint: language. Linguists and psychologists will find the language of support and employees not only formal and with very little empathy, they will even tell, it's parent to child communication. Travians mostly facing on "We want..." not on "What can we do for you?", Travians focussing on their work, intentions, time, department work ... but not on the needs and worries of the customers. Something like "I understand you ... " must be followed by action. Today we have a positive action: your information that there will be a meeting ... if you make that a real positive action, you will tell us results.

Does language matter for suggestions about detecting malicous multis? Yes, it does. If your role in any communicaion is less parent and more partner, less "we want" and more feeling of eye contact, results will be better, and real wrongdoers are not used to that and ... confess.

(ok, its getting too long again, sorry guys)

Salix wrote:

That's not what she said though. She said we don't accept the problem and dismiss concerns. That is what she actually wrote and that is simply not true. We are very well aware of the problem and we absolutely understand the concerns players have with this. Keep in mind that we are players too, we are bothered by this problem too.

Did you talk to Yuki, face to face, or in a private conversation.

The problem with all (most) Travians is: YOU always KNOW, what the other meant, wrote, thought. You almost never ask back to avoid misunderstandings ... up to Travians tell us (or is it just me) WHAT I THOUGHT, when I wrote.

Or, the other way, when a customer tells you, how they understood your text(s) they are blamed for misunderstanding, confusing your words ... your customers ask back, that's good communication, but mostly they don't get a better explanation.

Your answer so often is "We understand", "We know" ... not realizing that at least this thread is a collection of posts that try to tell you that YOU misunderstand, that you do not see the problem(s).

This is page 5 of a thread, where people tell you, explain once, twice, try to make it more clear ... but there is no try from your side, to get a confirmation that you understood correctly.

People her know other businesses, other companies, other games and try to tell you that most of them react and act differently from telling their customers "we absolutely understand the concerns" ... actually every other post in this thread

You - like most of your colleagues - are so sure about understanding us, the customers, no matter if from Japan or Germany, from the Netherlands or Turkey ... but honestly what I see in this thread is a global agreement, that you do not understand.

Your colleagues do the same ... so, why not think about the idea, that it might be limitations of your strategy, philosophy, communication model or business idea, that customers all over the world tell you "no, you do not understand".

Salix wrote:

As Klabbauter already correctly hinted, I am indeed not the right person to talk about their performance, which is why I don't focus my part of the discussion on that topic. I don't know more about it than any of you...less even, because I never wrote a ticket.

There is a very easy solution for this:

Bring in your colleague(s) who CAN, make them forum users and ask them to join this discussion.

Actually, I have experienced this more than once: being told "that's not my department, there are others doing that job", but then: no name said, no different employee joining in ... it's always the end of the discussion.

So, if part of the problems brought up here are none of your business, bring in the guy of the department dealing with those problems.

Salix wrote:

What I was talking about was ideas for a possible solution for malicous multi account.

Let us face it: As long as talking about details is a taboo, you will not find solutions.

You need examples to make strong arguments.

You always tell: We are not allowed to discuss details. Why not? GDPR? The law disallowes do publish PRIVATE data, name, address, mail address, credit card number, birth date, .... we do not need those private data to discuss cases.

We can talk about family A with father A, mother A and daugher A playing and not completely logging out each time ... they are caught as multis.

I would not call them malicous, but they will be banned ... and not even mother A is allowed to know the password of daughter A, though law forces her to know, what the kid is doing on the familiy computer.

Or: Player B writes a message and ends with "I hate you all. You are idiots." And signs with "Player C" Did you detect a malicous multi? Probably a worse one than family A, who just love the game and got only one computer.

There ARE ways to talk in a detailled way. And if you fear your stupid customers telling private data, use the power of this forum software and put those discussions into a category, where mods will check a post on real private data, before its free for all to read.

There are so many ideas ... but if they all get a NO before we can think on. And the taboo exists to keep us from talking about what is the burning worries of your customers ... besides that: that taboo is the best way to make people talk about the "details" in internet places that you can NOT control or even see. "We do not want these matters to be discussed" is the best way to have them discussed without you.

Other games tell anonymised "police reports", so the players know, there are punishments (and action), or they tell numbers or letters instead of player names ... but those companies think WITH their customers, who want to know, that wrongdoers are dealt with (watching action not words) and they want to know, that they get some sort of information, when they complain.

naike wrote:

Why do I have a gut feeling that in some way this discussions isn't appreciated at all and that is preferred to get it out of here?

With a "face to face" talk all communication is lost afterwards, written it can be read back.

Most of the participants who will join are not english native speaking people and I think the language barrier will be bigger speaking as writing

This will create in my opinion even more misunderstandings.

Some good points here.

Face to face discussions, or shall we call it realtime round table talk, on voice with Japanese, Dutch, Finnish, British, American, German and Greek people are a great source for misunderstandings.

There must also be a commitment that the results will be published and would be more binding to the publisher than just a "I will forward that". If you want the time of your customers, it should be very clear that you go into that meeting with more than the idea to make us accept your Nos, your "we can't"s and "impossible"s. That is, what I meant about objectives: more than telling us that there is no way.

We also have to be aware that such a talk will be with an employee of Bright Future, the company in Cologne (the game studio), while the decisions are made by Travian, the mother company from Munich, the publisher. And there has recently been a face to face talk already, which was announced and agreed to for quite a long time, but shortly before that talk, Travian sent a mail about the themes and objectives, which made the talk obsolete.

I am sadly missing the friend you talked to, and those people who left together with him.

It would be great to hear your voice, maybe you will earn more trust or personal sympathy ... but at the end it would be a waste of time of your customers, if again the Travian employees ignore that talk.

And another point: This thread started about Japanese support on misuse or multi reports. If the talk would tell us that you know nothing about Japanese support team ... again that would be a waste of time of our Japanese friends. So: be prepared to talk about the themes that came up here, a "That's not my department" or "I don't know" ... would not create trust.

And about time: 7 pm in Germany (19.00 Uhr) means 2 am (2.00 Uhr) in Japan. This is a thread about worries of our Japanese friends ... THEY should set the time. I would be ready to stay awake or get up early ... we cannot decide and not even talk about problems on Japanese servers, when those customers who named the problems are excluded by time zones. Honestly, a face to face talk would be much more a service of your customers to your company than the other way round.

Which also means: If your company does not allow you to talk face to face during your work time ... well, that means they are not really interested to listen to their customers on the other side of the globe.

So yes, if you keep those points in mind I would be very intersted to listen to you.

Bauer 33333 wrote:

Is there a way to change region in Steam over Europe?

No. You may build tracks, change your home town to a different region, but at the end, when the end game is finished, you will get the extra points (PP) from the region that you started in.

Salix wrote:

That automatically makes it necessary to also define what can't be used, doesn't it?

Not necessarily.

If you want to travel to Munich for example, there is no need to think about where you don't want to go. You will not check the trains from Cologne to Berlin or Hamburg for example. But that's not what I talked about, it's how we deal with ideas and suggestions. However you travel on the first week of summer holidays, you might want a train that will NOT stop at Frankfurt airport, cause that will be crowded with tourists. You first think about your destination, then about ideas that might help.

In this case, the 2FA was suggested as an idea, supported by several adult users, players and customers who experienced 2FA on other games and websites, some like it, some do not. However, your answer was like "it can't be used" right away, and your arguments were fantasy "players would leave the game" ... but you gave no proof, that your words base on experience, that you ever tried it.

So, instead of an immediate No ... how about asking your discussion partners: Would customers accept that? How can we find out? Which 2FA applications do you know that would fit to our login system?

So, what I mean: Even if you are absolutely sure to have read about the worst and most impossible way to your destination ("Why not walk to Munich? Would help your health!") keep in touch with your discussion partners, ask questions instead of a No, add questions and second thoughts to your No. Maybe they have something in mind, that you did not think of.

The Pro and Con list (We can use this / This can't be used) should be the RESULT of a discussion, not the second post to an idea.Also means: we should start with brainstorming, and the first rule of brainstorming is: do not talk negative of an idea, no matter how bad it is, during brainstorming collect ideas, not judgment.

★YUKI★ wrote:

If we must/need talk to someone, we just call them... I never heard of applications like this here, it is mostly messages, so I dont really know any of the applications you said, sorry

Yes, that might be a problem. All the applications that go between internet users with microphone and speakers/headphones, use "Voice over IP" (VoIP), and as internet providers often are telephone providers too and telephone providers often already use the internet for phone connections and no longer the telephone cables ... locally the providers strictly disallow VoIP, so locally apps like Teamspeak, Discord and Skype might be totally unknown.

And as you said, this thread goes around the world, translating written posts is easier than when a not native English speaker talks to not native English listeners. There are exceptions. During the last 50 years, after my school time, I only once listened to a guy and I thought: this is the original sound of an Oxford born English gentleman ... but he was the owner of a Greek tavern on Astipalayea.

★YUKI★ wrote:

But what is a discord?

Why we need to have a specific time?

Discord is an internet service that combines chat and voice connection. Maybe you know Skype or TeamSpeak or other messenger systems that allow voice connection together with written chat.

So, as you don't know it ... you will need time to find it, decide for or against it, install it, learn it ... which might need some extra time.

★YUKI★ wrote:

We are discussing here, yes? Each one of us interested in this talk\subject is coming here at our convinient time to read messages and send our reply.

We are so many countries, different times, we work, have busy adult life.

This is the great advantage of forums: they can be global. You do not have to react immediately, you have time to THINK about the posts of the others, to find the little diamonds in posts that on first reading totally annoy you, and we have to be patient to wait for replies from the other side of our earth.

The disadvantage of written conversation is: we read it with OUR inner voice. If we are angry, if we are afraid of something, we will understand ANY words different from reading later, when whe are happy, when we have fun, when it stopped raining.

Well, and talking about my feelings ... I feel some inconsitency, when I read Salix's posts. He is so keen to answer, so enthusiastic to write ... but then, you call his answers "negative", my words are: they stop/kill the ideas. I have the idea, if we could hear Salix in a coffee shop or over the microphone, we would get a better idea about him ... is he telling HIS own perception or is he just the speaker of the managers of his company? That is, why I would be interested to HEAR Salix, and not my own inner voice, sometimes happy, sometimes angry, sometimes patient or impatient, when I read his words.

Travian's strategy about forums is not to show pride, not to show enthusiasm, not to show coolnees about rules, not to show empathy ... but to be formal, to be rule orientated ... well for me, focussing on rules and formalisme quickly kills empathy.

But without empathy, whithout thanking the other for good and bad posts, without first think about a good point before writing "nonsense" or "not true" or "Impossible" ... that kills games, forums, empathy, enthusiasm, customer count.

Salix wrote:

Would anyone be interested to discuss this "live" in Discord (I will talk, but writing is also okay for everyone who won't do that) some evening next week?

Probably. At least me. (but not today or this weekend, so next week is a good idea for my side)

However ... this thread is international, global even.

Starts with Japanese friends, European players joining later, but soon. And probably some friends in between.

The first problem will be the time ... IF we (you) discuss the problems and objectives of this thread, our Japanese friends should be in the discussion (because, deep in my mind I got the feeling, that there might be a difference between Japanese support and European support).

Second problem, what shall we talk about?

For me, this thread makes clear:

Players here are talking about objectives, achievements they wish to get, goals, aims, starting with having fun, getting rid of misuse, feeling more enthusiasm, keeping a good count of players and friends ... while your very much appreciated (appreciated, because at least you answer, though at least I miss the feeling, that those, who decide about your answers, your bosses, are only just thinking about what customers tell here) answers often focus on the way your company goes (working on RTS for 5 years now, working on HTML5 for 1 year now, etc). Your answers often tell the WAY your company goes for years now, while users here write about objectives and directions to more fun, more trust, more friends in the game. And - honestly - your answers often kill ideas brought forward, before thinking about them can start. Discord discussion should be about what can be used of the ideas, not about why they are impossible or no option.

So, as far as time goes: let our Japanese friends make a suggestion (or 2), and I will stay awake.

As far as themes gos: tell us your objectives, the direction your company decided for, tell us about RN in 2022, so we do not only know your way you picket during the last 5 years, but also the real bright future of RN, the fire, that will create more enthusiasm and fun in us.

So ... time and objectives ... then Discord. (that would be my suggestion)

Salix wrote:

Well you say that, but I'm afraid that's not realy true.

Truth again.

Streitaxt tells his opinion, you tell yours. From the perception of both of you, both is "The Truth".

To find out, which is the truth, or ... which truth will be seen as true by a majority, both ways should be tried.

However, Streitaxt tells of the experiences of other publishers and internet companies, while you have nothing but words (opinion, perception), which on your perception might be "really true" ... and then tell us, on what "We" focus.

And if I do like Streitaxt and look at numbers: yes the new ones are - you tell it - a steady number, coming and going, not changing the sum at the end. But the "incredible valus" of old players ... it's decreasing. You lose them, no matter what you focus on. That's what happens for years now. Over the years, the SUM of players is decreasing, going down.

What I wonder about is: there is a crowd of old, trusty, engaged, enthusiastic players, but their number is decreasing. And there is no visible efford (just only words like "in the future we will..:") to KEEP some of the new ones for a time, that they will join the old group.

For me, there is one thing quite obvious here: Samisu is the only one, whose words express enthusiasm about the product, and pride about being the one to talk to us customers.

Enthusiasm is like a fire, a torch ... to keep customers, that flame of enhusiasm should be passed from the makers and their speakers to the customers and players. To keep customers (and to gain new ones) the best way is to express your enthusiasm, your pride, not only by words, but by action, not only by "in the future we might be able..." but by a spirit of "Yes we can!"

I see enthusiastic players here, proud players ... but on the publishers side I only see Samisu acting (acting!) enthusastic and proud and passing on that flame to us.

So, at the end, you may tell Streitaxt to be afraid, cause you know a better truth. However, looking at player numbers (and at business numbers) from my perception Streitaxt is closer to the truth. Streiaxt (and others here) offer THINKABLE ideas, ideas that were successfully tried by others. And instead of trying to find the little diamond in his words, that your team might think about to create increasing numbers and income ... you just tell he's not really true.

Thanks, Samisu, that sums up, what we are discussing.

Samisu wrote:

What is missing is a response from the support that answers to the most burning question: Will something be done (without telling what is being done, how and when)?

Might sound impossible, but based on the comments in this thread - we could review the answers we give so that the answers give at least some peace. The main issue here seems to be the misunderstanding that nothing is done, and that is unfortunate.

What the answer from support can say? We are thankful for the report, we are looking into it and if we find anything - we will act on it. That's pretty much it. We could probably add that due to privacy laws, this is all the information we will give.

That is one of the suggestions here.

After that first (sounding like copy&paste) answer, players are left with no further information.

The good side of this is: no problems with GDPR and other lawy, the bad side of that strategy is: the complaing players feel left alone, nobody caring ... plus: they are losing trust in the words of Travian people.

Support has several ways to get over this:

- they can provide a final answer (this case is closed) and even tell they took action without any private data

- there could be something, other games call "police report", which would be an ingame message like "Unfortunately we had to ban 4 players for 48 hours each for disruptive behaviour" ... there is no private data in this, but the complaining players know: something has been done and the disruptive guys know: oh, there are punishments

- there are more ideas in this thread that should be thought about before calling them impossible

Samisu wrote:

Another burning question is how to address the expectations players have? We are not acting in a way that is visible to players, while that is what players want. Action, now.

So true, this IS a burning question.

My personal feelings are: Travian far to often does not continue to answer second questions or backchatting, or if they do, the answer starts with "We can't ..." or contains words like impossible or complicated.

As I see it, players would love to build up trust to the company. Trust also contains trust in "Yes, they can!" or "Wow! They can make it possible!" and "So great, they care about us".

If answers would go into that direction (you, Samisu, have given so great examples for that) of "they can", "they care", "they do what they say", "they are masters in their jobs" .... I think, Travian answers would mach expectations very very well.

Your last paragraph:

Well, that's about rules. Rules are never written in stone. If rules don't have the effect they were expected to create, changing rules should always be thought of. So, I would love to also think about: are the set rules supporting, what the players wish and what creates income for your business.

Changing rules can also be an option. Do not limit yourself by your own rules.

Salix wrote:

That is already not okay.

If that is not ok then the complaining customers stay angry.

"We took action" does not mean, that you punished the reported players. It just tells that someone was active, investigated.

There is no private data in that message.

Salix wrote:

No. But it's the reply we give, because we can't provide specific information about what exactly we did to an account you reported (privacy laws, again).

See, what I was talking about when I wrote about "no information"?

That first reply is no information ... just the little that support has the plan to look at it.

If, as a second information you cannot give specific information, just let people know and give unspecific information.

Tell them, that you took action, tell them that you will not specify the action and persons, tell them that the case is finished ... but tell those worrying, enganged and waiting customers something that gives them the information that you are worrying too, that you understand them, that you care.

There is no need for specific, detailled or private information ... but with no second step, no second answer to your customers, they stay in a situation of "no information". And from the business view ... which part of the customers do you want to keep? Those, who are worrying but get no second answer after that copy&paste text? Or those disruptive players who kill the fun of your customers ... no matter how you prefer to call them?

Salix wrote:

I'm not being negative here, I'm being realistic

Truth is not in the words "I am ..."

Truth is, what people read from your words. There are two perceptions here, two thruths. One says you are realistic, the other one says you are negative. Both are truths, opinions, perceptions .... discussions have the big chance to find out which percecpion provides the better arguments and which perception(s) lead(s) to solutions.

Thanks for the link, Hilti.

But as I understand wikipedia ... that RRN is not only used by games, but ... "Many South Korean websites require users to submit a valid resident registration number to create an account."

What I am not sure about after reading the wiki page: An RRN is given to residents in Korea, no matter which nation. But how about people wanting to play on a Korean server but living outside the country? Can they get an RRN too?

So, that's a number that creates the idea of creating unique accounts (not only for games) but the downsides of that idea is identity theft, cause once hacked, those hackers can take your (numbered) identity. As I undestand the news from China, they even collect internet activities, not only those connected to any account, and store them together with their social insurance number, with - my perception - is a large step on to totally controlled people.

I understand the suggestions made here as a much smaller id check, just the confirmation that any player just plays only one avatar on a server ... and a 2FA login (like for example a push message to be confirmed on your smartphone) is just one of the ideas here. What we witness in Korea (and China) imho is the bigger thing, where autorities want total control of their residents, while we here are thinking about a company making sure that one person plays one avatar.

Salix wrote:

This is not a metaphor, it's a fact and it's relevant for this discussion. What is needed to actually exclude disruptive players from a game reliably is to link accounts to actual persons. And this is not possible, except in Korea where this is actually done.

Well, you tell "not possible". Or Korea to be the only country where accounts (ok, I think you might only think about game accounts) link to actual persons.

I am not that sure about this matter. i would very much appreciate, if you could provide a like about the Korean law, as I think it might not only focus on game accounts.

However, why should linking to actual persons not be possible in Europe? The GPDR does not totally disallow the collection of private data, it just disallowes to collect them without asking. Actually you DO collect private data. If TG payment sells gold to us asking for our credit card number, the name on it, or our phone number. Or if you ask us for postcards with our real addresses to send out the prizes, you know our names, each employess who has access to the pinboard of postcards knows those names.

You might even publish them, IF ... yes, if you would ask us to be allowed (but I guess, that question would make some players run).

Also, I often use the example of Linden Labs and their product Second Life, not a Korean company, but a US company. When they started to allow 18+ content on some of their servers, I had to prove my age to get access to those servers (to make my games run on that servers, not to watch naked avatars ..) or when I wanted a "confirmed" account to use the virtual currency exchange, again I had to verify my identity by id card, driving licence or passport.

Even the GDPR allows collecting of private data, allows using them for verifying account access ... as our data security officers tell us, you just have to give a good reason when reporting that data use to authorities.

And I am not sure about adult games. What if your games had 18+ content ... wouldn't you have to do a good, reliable way to get to know the RL age of that customer?

However ... as I see it: there ARE problems, worries, sorrows expressed in the start posts. Your customers here try to suggest things. Answers like "not possible" or "2FA would ..." or "we are not in Korea" ... well, those are arguments, but also stoppers, they stop the ideas.

Yes, there IS the GDPR in Europe. It's a law that disallows the collection and use of private data ... without asking and informing. So, instead of "not possible", why not talk about the law to let the idea grow .... would you customers be ok with giving some proof of your identity, so we can better and easier and simpler check multi account misuse? Would you rather run away or would you stay, because you can be sure about the other avatars have been asked to be unique too?

"Not possible" kills the idea before it can start to grow into a good solution or strategy.

No invention has ever been done by humans, who said "not possible" and went away to forget about an idea.

Salix wrote:

I am here, ain't I? I am here and told you things. And I am here for a reason. As you pointed out correctly, I can't tell you what exactly did in this particular case, but you are a smart person, draw your conclusions.

Yes, you are here. Very much appreciated.

However, the problem is not that players over and over start threads like this one, because they FEEL to be left alone without reaction. My thought were about changing that feeling. ... by suggesting several ideas, like the proactive ingame messages "Today we had to ban 5 avatars ...." for example.

Customers do not buy or deny a purchase, because of someone telling them "We do something", they decide about their money mostly based on their feelings ... that is, why my ideas go into proactive action.

Plus: conclusions that I can do, do not matter. Especially they do not matter for our Japanese friends. When they write about their feelings ... the way to keep them is to strengthen their trust in your company.

Salix wrote:

Gaming companies can ban accounts. Players can create accounts. That's the problem.

You may see that as a problem or THE problem. But it's also a chance for companies to grow.

Also, let us forget about political metaphors like talking about Korea. I was just asked to delete a political metaphor from my profile pinboard, and of course I did. Let us talk about company customer relationship and how to improve quality, trust and sales.

Salix wrote:

It's not stupid. Sustaining a game is just not as simple as you make it sound.

Hehe, how about the KISS strategy? Keep it simple, stupid!

Sustaining any software, especialle fun software, is not THAT complicated, it's just the job, some of us picked... and it can be a lot of fun.

If you keep it simple.

Salix wrote:

Who says we didn't take action or won't take action?

Nobody definitely tells that.

The problem is, that if people do not see any results, if they witness trolling and don't see that stopped, if they witness multis and see them again tommorow, see them on Tuesday and next week too ... what do they think? You cannot stop people, players, customers from thinking. And without information, thinking will be guessing.

Problem is, you cannot tell details. Privacy laws are clear, they do not allow you to tell detailled results. However, if you tell nothing at all, that means, there is no information at all for those whose fun is spoiled, who acted to help you, who are angry, who feel bestrayed by other, wrongdoing, players ...

And those, who DO wrong, who spoil fun ... they feel safe to continue. You may ban them for a day, for a week ... do they care? If they really want to spoil our fun, they will be back tomorrow with a different mail ... the wrongdoers WILL return, only a family father who confessed that he knows the password of his daughter ... that one will not return after his ban.

Well ... the words "We take action" ... are just words. Many will believe in them, but those who have never witnessed results, will start to doubt. Your words "We take action" are true, or maybe they are true. But with no information there is no way to emphasize trust in your words and to delete doubts.

First step could be to send out a message on the game world like "Today we had to ban 5 players for 48 hours each. Please do not spoil the fun of the players ... we don't enjoy sending out news like this one."