Posts by Klabbauter

    10 k players each day means 3333 games each day, which makes 139 per hour.

    Assuming it takes 1 minute to shuffle them together and 2 minutes to play, that is 3 minutes per game, making 417 game minutes needed every hour (with 60 minutes) ... so with that assumption there are alsways (on average over the day) 7 games running at the same time.

    And again, 7 parallel games mean 21 players to be shuffled ... so as I see it, Naike's idea together with my little extra database table would not mean too much waiting time, if playing with the last 5-6 opponent is excluded (if the table contains 6, there are still 14 candidates not in that table).


    Maybe the cheaters will meet again every 4th or 5th game that way ... that at least takes some of their motivation.


    However, listening to HMR, the assumption of 10k players sounds very ... hopeful. Also there are times with lower player load, when that little table might better be switched off (until the cheaters find out and/or better ideas came up).

    Nope. TV ads are f*ing expensive (both production and airing them) and do not really have an immediate effect of player numbers. They have other purposes (like brand awareness), but for this particular purpose it would be as close as "literally throwing money out of the window" as you can get

    Thanks for that answer. It correlates exactly with my thoughts. :thumbsup: :evil: 8)


    But how about thinking on in that direction? You have just made (at least) two experiments with influencers on youtube. How about one, who plays clash in July (with some of your employees or on PTR), creates his vid and offers it all over August, so people would be curious in Clash-September.

    Any thoughts about possible solutions for that?

    Adding NPC to clash after a timeout. The NPC should be randomly skilled players. Not all the same. I think you progged them already and used them for training in the very first clas version.


    Or: in times of low player count, clash could allow to play 1 vs. 1


    Or: doing a promotion. Like those forum challenges, that suddenly bring hundreds of forum users for a few hours, just because you can win 10 gold.

    So: if player load is low, clash could give 1 gold or 1 free ticket for each application that gets 3 points at least ... just for 1 or 2 hours.


    Or: Create tv ads about clash and run them in August, so that might invite more players to Clash-September. And also add RN players for best season (autumn and winter) for online games.

    I like it more to play against unnkown opponents.

    I fully agree. Playing preferably with friends means, that very soon you will know your ranks in the final list.


    But most of all, if we look at the thread theme "clash suicide players" ... for me, it is more friends that play suicide rounds, rather than multis.

    So giving friends an option to play together opens the doors wide for suicidal friends.

    Ah, we are getting closer, we find ideas that we both agree to, and get a better perception of the differences by this. That's good.

    Your thoughts about this are far from uncommon or unusual, it's essentially the basic idea of the "player dynamics" mindset: Make bad interactions impossible/unattractive by design.


    But as I wrote before: That's a goal. A very good goal, no doubt. But finding a goal is not the hard part. There is no need to discuss about that goal, we already agree on it 100%. We should leave the clouds of ideology and goals but get down to earth instead, discussing how to actually reach those goals.

    There is no need for thoughts to be uncommon or unusual. Best ideas are simple (or so common, that ev1 says: I could have thought of that too).

    But they are only useful, when they find their way into the project.


    Where I disagree to you is that phrase to "leave the clouds of ideology and goals but get down to earth instead". For a few reasons:

    - us customers do not know the innards, we don't know the code, we don't know the database design, so our ideas can only be up in the sky, between the clouds, where we look at the game and do not know about the details. (That is, why I often think of developers to join discussions like this, cause they know and would be able to direct our ideas into directions of practicability.

    - there is no agreement about goals, eve in this thread a few see the mail goal in punishing/banning, others see the main goal in avoiding/impossibility. These goals must not necessarily exclude each other. One can follow the other.

    - I do NOT see finding goals to be the easy part. Most projects that fail have no clear, fixed goals ... but just clouds of ideas. So, setting the goals, which might need put several teams together (customers, comm managers, quality team, developers, proggers) very often is the tricky part

    So my question to you is: How would you actually reach this goal? Not in some other game or in general, but specifically in the actual game Clash! in Rail Nation.

    First (still up in the clouds) I would clearify the goals, set the objectives. You and me agree to a certain point, but does ev1 else involved?`


    So first would be goals, SMART goals:

    S = specific, sensible, simple, significant ... Is there REALLY a goal that can be described in simple words? Is is simple enough? Does it make a significant change?

    M = measurable, meaningful, motivation ... do the goals motivate customers to enthusiastically look forward to next years clash? Can it be measured, when it is reached, or what is still missing?

    A = achievable, attainable, agreed ... do all involved parties agree, that is can be reached? Can the team of developers and proggers reach it? Have all parties agreed to it?

    R = reasonable, realistic, ressourced, results-based ... are the goals reachable with the manpower and budgets available? Are they realistic, and will they reduce the anger of customers dramatically? Are they realistic with the ressources your company can apply to these goals?

    T = time based, time bound, time/cost limited ... One of the most tricky points in setting goals, cause almost all goals not reached where those, who had no set time limit. You will not be able to achieve changes this round, but you CAN set the time frame to next year, when clash starts again. So you have one year (possibly together with us customers) to evaluate logs, elaborate brainwave ideas into realistic objectives, calculate time, ressources and costs ... and DO IT.

    And, as one year is a very very long time, I would strongly suggest to split up your goals about clash into steps, goals or milestones for each of the next 2-3 months periods till clash starts again.


    And as customers look like being very interested, I would suggest to include customers into goals and solution finding as well as QA and proggers.


    Not the answer that you asked for. "How would you actually reach ..."


    I would set a goal like:
    When we start clash again in September 2021, it will make all tricks used by cheaters impossible, just like some more tricks that we can think of. We do this in cooperation of progger teams, customers, quality team, communicators and developers. We will also change the perspective of the game a bit, so that all tracks definitely show same length. And we will add some limited response function, so customers can report fairness, fun and motivation.

    In first step (till christmas) we will collect ideas of customers, proggers and developers and bring them together, to change ideas and stormed brain work into reachable and reasonable goals.


    3) Cheaters are smart, at least some of them. If radical behavior (like winning ALL THE TIME against the same person) gets you banned, they adapt and simply behave less obvious.

    I agree. I know teams of cheaters and hackers (but none in RN), some of them being even friends. One team also liked helicopter flying, and HOW they fly is like sailing a small sailing yacht through a force 11 storm (so, somewhat familiar to me). But it is so much worth to know them, their ideas, their thinking ... which gave me ideas to prevent my software from being hacked and my games to be motivating cheaters.

    Listen to them, know them ... let them try and fail ... enjoy being more clever than them ... cause banning them only motivates them to try better.


    Well, I put up 2 ideas here. Just ideas, not yet goals.

    As HMR says: they do not work with small player load, so maybe your proggers can change them into something that is possible with just the few players that long for winning clash.

    I'm afraid it will make it impossible to play most of the time.

    You make a point. Yes, my ideas need a number of players that allow to wait for the next game without too much noticing that longer wait time.

    If customer count decreases, you are totally right.


    However, generally, brainstorming might help to work on a first idea and transform it into something that also works on times with low customer count.


    Because, though that contradicts to many others, my goal is, NOT to punish and ban cheaters after times of investigation and pattern checks, but to make the game more clever, so that cheating becomes boring. Because (apart from knowing some hackers and cheaters and their way of thinking), we all know, that laws and punishments do not keep wrongdoers away ... but shutting up our doors keeps (part of) the thieves away.

    Wrongdoers, multis and cheaters think that they are more clever than the fair players and the game developers. So my thinking goes into the direction to make the game more clever than the cheaters.

    At the moment cheater can rely on getting together in one game, by applying at the same time. My idea (which is not yet perfect) is to keep that door shut, in a clever way ... immediately, not after all the games are done.


    My hope is, that some of the developers of the game can find the little light within my ideas that enables them to use them together with their much better knowledge of the code and the database.

    If you happen to know that way and you figured out how to identify someones intentions with 100% (or at least acceptable) accuracy, let me know.

    Well, I can be very (VERY) sure about intentions on eye to eye contact. Which is not possible in the internet (not even with cameras).


    So, I do not even try to find out intentions of others to punish them, I try to avoid punishments by making thinkable and observed intentions impossible to perform. And that was, why I added a suggestion towards a possible solution, not thought to the end, not yet perfect, but that worked for me, when I created games that put competitors together. With that little table (and a few hours of progging), the players could never again predict, in which order they had to apply to be put together in one game.


    Another trick was, that on times with big player load, I kept open 3 or even 5 new games and used a random generator to appoint the applications to one of them ... randomly. Again, just another trick to make it hard for them to predict anything, simple and easy to code.


    The result was: yes we suspected some multies or cheaters and some coordination in taking advantage against solo players ... but they disappeared without taking our time into controversial discussions about fair play or anything.


    Plus: our systems did not do any disadvantage to the fair playing customers, they also always had new competitors, fun and success ... without waiting till the end, if some cheaters would be disqualified.

    So ... well, even if you find cons, my thinking and my ideas go into the direction to avoid additional work at the end, additional corrections for the final results or even the feeling of the fair players, that they are cheated every other game.


    It is something I took over from business progging to game progging. You always have to fight the hackers, the intruders, the data miners, the cheaters ... and the best way is NOT to wait for their next better action and try to react ... but to take a few minutes to think like them and proactively add a little bit that destroys their hopes. It's somehow like a war ... which you can win, if you think before they try something new.

    Or, in other words ... if my creative team is able to change their own patterns quicker than the other side does with their patterns, customers will be happy about fair play.


    How about thinking (a little bit only) in that direction, before next years clash starts?

    Easy workaround for cheaters: Just involve a third account.
    We also prevent that? Np, involve a fourth account. And so on..

    Only if they know ... I often worked with tables of limited entries that automatically destroy the oldest entries if new ones come in. So, if that table contains 6 entries, and they don't know of it ... it will work ... and time for progging is less than a day.

    You do not tell about the game innards, so there's also no need to tell about how you put together clash contestants ... as you are able to run several clash games at the same time, just let the cheaters wait.


    Plus: It's just ONE idea, how to react. ONE idea that could be thought about, could be expanded and improved and combined with other simple solutions.


    Also: I cannot really believe in the idea that the suicide players are multi accounts. Those cheaters would have to play clash on two screens with left hand mouse and right hand mouse simultaniously. Some people might be able to do that ... but with that skill, would they play RN?


    I more believe in the idea that the suicidal players are friends, communicating on a working chat system to start clash simultaniously ... much easier to do clash suicide if your other hand does not have the task to win.

    Well, depends. Naikes example is ONE MATCH. Of course we don't make decisions based on individual games, but patterns.

    Well ... patterns ...

    Please don't be angry with me about the following ...

    See, WE play clash for a few hours and as one result we KNOW the names of the cheaters, both, the suicidal avatar and the winner avatar. We happen to watch them 3 times, 10 times or more ... and we KNOW the cheaters, both.


    If you play clash for a few hours, you will miss some hours of your work time, some hours in doing what your company asks you to do. So, you need an automatic system to detect the cheaters, both of them, and to be 100% sure.

    Well, you will be angry about my next words, but let's face it: I trust you. I trust you to develop a bug free, error free, 100% safe pattern detector as much as I trust you to develop a bug free shop, a bug free chat and news system and a bug free game.

    I do not even trust myself about bugs and mistakes ... so whenever I have developed an automatic system like that, I made sure, that any bug in it will NEVER EVER punish an innocent, fair playing player or customer.


    Also: one con against detecting pattern is the time needed for it. At the moment you punish cheaters at the end, after clash is done. But at that point ALL victims of the cheaters have lost points, many points, maybe half of the points they would have achieved on fair played games.

    As many told about clash: punishment must happen IMMEDIATELY ... so the fair players have a chance to get onto that position they deserve.


    And that is, why I think more about cheating out the cheaters immediately than to think about pattern detection, which will better help and should only be used to create more cheater defense for next year's clash event.

    And if players happen to be unable to participate in that time frame, they are screwed. That's not cool.

    The idea to also use time frames for reaction would improve ideas of immediate response. But you are right, RN and especially clash is a "melting pot of people" (why do I imagine my old English teacher now?), we play with different nations, cultures, life styles. Creativity is needed to bring them together and run a fair game. I trust you ... also to have those creative people in your team (and among your customers) who can cooperate to find a way.

    That is also my personal goal ( possibly including a temporary ban from RN). We still need to check how to do that, but at least that's the goal.

    One possible (part of a) solution would be a database table, that stores the names or account ids of the last 2-4 competitors and not to let them run up together till the table contains fresh names ... this way the cheaters would not be able to work together in two consecutive games. Each of them would get new competitors for the next go ... and they had to play that one to erase their names from the table of the other.

    Also, this method would not lead to misinterpretations in situations that Naike described.


    I definitely dislike bans, cause there's always the danger of misinterpretation (see Naike's example), I prefer solutions that make special ways of cheating impossible (or at least very difficult) and take the control from the cheaters ... for example by a way to shuffle competitors.

    Maybe my idea will increase the waiting time at periods of low customer load ... but those cheaters would have to wait even longer to get together again.

    Samisu is right ... that's the way to transfer gold from one server to another one of the same domain.


    But some hints should be added:


    - Normally, as Cpl Dave asked in post #23, gold of a previous game round is back, when you register for a new round on the very same server.


    - If you decide to transfer gold from one server to another, DO NOT log in on that server again after that transfer. It will last 3 days to be available on another server ... unless you log in again ... which means: transver is cancelled.


    - If you decide to transfer gold, be sure to have some transferable gold, which means: purchased gold. If there is only won gold, nothing will be transferred. Only purchased gold can be transferred (together with plus days). So if you got won gold only, nothing will be transferred, if you have purchased gold, that part will be transferred ... good idea is to change the won gold into plus days before you transfer.


    - If you played a Fast Forward server, that gold will be available within some days (1-2 weeks) on any server of the same domain. No action necessary ... unless they decided to start another FF server next week (probably they will not, masters is coming up ... or running already)

    Thanks Samisu ... information would be helpful, how to set preferences to be sure to watch video ads.

    Maybe vids will run with "only necessary" but I doubt that (will try later or tomorrow) because the vid search and play calls so many javascripts from external URLs.

    So if the team would let us know which preferences to set for playing with and without vids, that would help.



    Edit:

    Hahaha, I am sooo curious and tried a video immediately. (which also means I can play with the "necessary" selection)

    It does not run with the "only necessary" selection but a different consent management tool pops up and again asks to allow cookies, but in a different way.

    So ... yes, you use TWO consent manager tools in the game.

    And that means, information about what cookie preferences to set for the vids would be helpful.

    Well, a lot of websites apply cookie consent tools to their websites, to opt-in into cookie use.

    Cookie consent tools should be localised ... should ... the update shows, localizing is left out, which might be a bug ... or an incomplete update.

    European law changes into rules that companies MUST show an opt-in popup to get the agreement ... especially if cookies are used for tracking and tracing.

    Problem is: most programs that are a bit more complex, NEED cookies, to know who you are, when you change from map to research, for example.

    But most of the cookies used are for tracking, tracing, marketing, statistics ... meaning to store also private data or even give them to others (the video ad providers for example)


    So, the buttons:

    first dark one is to allow "nur notwendige Cookies" = "only necessary Cookies" ... which I understand those cookies that the game REALLY needs to run

    second (first green) is to allow a selection that you can set with the links below the buttons (forget it, if you don't speak German)

    last button (second green) is to allow ALL cookies, tracker, tracer, third party cookies, anything


    Now ... what I would do in your situation (and what I have done):

    klick the "only notwendige Cookies" button. That will allow you to play the game. And let us hope, that RN team does not think that some trackers are "necessary".

    Do not try the selection settings, if you are not familiar with German.


    Maybe if we allow only necessary cookies we might not be able to watch the video ads in the station, because the ad providers think, that so much information about the user/watcher is ... necessary.

    But we will see about that ... and hope for another update of the game that shows localized versions of their consent managment tool.

    Till then, only click the darkdardbrown button and nothing else.

    HTH

    Some really interesting information, and what I liked most: so much more honesty instead of promises. Thanks a lot.

    I am looking forward towards the notes and more of those sessions on different themes.

    If you wanna record the session, we can hardly stop you. But we definitely ask you not to. Please keep in mind that our devs did not agree to being recorded externally and that a Q&A like this is also a "first time" for them.

    Definitely ... I asked because I just coached a charity that offers telephone services for older people. Sometimes they need the adress, which we recorded. The effort to add functions to prohibit recording until the correct questions were asked and confirmed and then to switch on the recording ... that was quite a big part of the app I made for them. And checked by the extermal GPDR guy too. So yes, do not record ... respect privacy of the people that do the session.


    PS: Klabbauter Thanks for the technical questions, I knew I could rely on you for that. If I may ask....will you be there at Thursday?

    Thanks for those nice words, Salix. It's in my calendar. And I am more than interested. I really want to listen to the good news.

    Thanks Samisu.

    Good point about recording. I would never do it, but a hint that it would touch personal / private rights makes sense.

    And thanks about the chat part ... that will help many to come with their questions.

    We know you can do it. Please do it!

    SO TRUE!


    If you play the game and forget to think about bugs ... there are so many details and very well done functions .... so much proof that there is a real great team working.

    Yes, you can do it.

    Master Yoda in one scene talks in correct SPO order: "There is no try. Do or do not." He might have said: "There is no promise, do or do not!"

    You can ... so, please do!

    Hi Samisu,

    when i asked for a transkript, I though we would have a chat session, writing questions and reading answers. Then a full transkript would could have been created easily.

    I now read, it will be a video session ... so we should be prepared to stream the video with zoom and to listen via loudspeakers or headphones.


    My new - offtopic - question is: are we allowed to record the video and/or audio stream for our personal use?

    Plus: do we need a microphone to add questions, or can we write them?